NarrowBand Radio Frequency Changes

[NYC3001]

Norfolk Southern, has been recently modifying their radio licenses in Southern Lower Michigan. They have been adding new frequencies, digital and narrowband modulation designators, which reflects the purchase of new two-way radio equipment. For example, last week, the FCC approved the following license modification to this license:

Norfolk Southern Railway Company
1200 Peachtree St., NE Box 123
Atlanta GA 30309

Callsign: WQIV892
Radio Service: IG-Conventional Industrial/Business Pool

COMMON CARRIER RAILROAD

Action: MODIFIED


Area of Operation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 FIXED 421817.0N 831435.0W DEARBORN WAYNE MI
2 FIXED 421452.0N 844517.0W ALBION CALHOUN MI
3 FIXED 421425.0N 842325.0W JACKSON JACKSON MI
4 FIXED 414358.0N 841722.0W MUNSON LENAWEE MI
5 FIXED 414854.0N 084723.0W SAND CREEK LENAWEE MI
6 FIXED 414416.0N 841643.0W MUNSON LENAWEE MI
7 MOBILE DEARBORN WAYNE MI 8.0 KMRA around a centerpoint
8 MOBILE ALBION CALHOUN MI 8.0 KMRA around a centerpoint
9 MOBILE JACKSON JACKSON MI 8.0 KMRA around a centerpoint
10 MOBILE MUNSON LENAWEE MI 8.0 KMRA around a centerpoint
11 MOBILE SAND CREEK LENAWEE MI 8.0 KMRA around a centerpoint
12 MOBILE MUNSON LENAWEE MI 8.0 KMRA around a centerpoint

Pwr ERP # of # of (A)nalog
Ref Class Freq Out Out Units Pagers (D)igital (X)Unknwn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 FB 161.52000 008 005 1 0 AD
2 FB 161.47500 008 005 1 0 AD
3 FB 161.47500 008 005 1 0 AD
4 FB 161.47500 008 005 1 0 AD
5 FB 161.47500 008 005 1 0 AD
6 FB 161.47500 008 005 1 0 AD
7 MO 160.38000 005 005 20 0 AD
8 MO 160.38000 005 005 20 0 AD
9 MO 160.38000 005 005 20 0 AD
10 MO 160.38000 005 005 20 0 AD
11 MO 160.38000 005 005 20 0 AD
12 MO 160.38000 005 005 20 0 AD

The use of 161.520 MHz, is a new one for the Dearborn area. However, the splitting of 160.380 MHz and adding 161.475 MHz as the base frequency is rather interesting. Apparently, the mobile/portables will transmit on 160.380 MHz, and receive on 161.475 MHz, and vice versa for the base units. It will be very interesting to see how this pans out once the changeover begins.

[NYC3001]

This information pertains to radio communications on a growing number of CSX Divisions. Apparently, they are rolling out their new Kenwood NEXEDGE Digital radios in a few locations, to augment the need for secure communications between the dispatcher, trains in motion, and key yard facilities. The complete systemwide replacement for all radios is expected by December of 2010. Likewise, these new radios have the ability to use voice encryption on top of the digitally modulated signal.

This following information comes from the CSX Web site:

Security Network Radio Policy:

1.0 Purpose
Purpose of this policy is to address requirements and limitations on the various zones in place at CSX in order to apply appropriate level of controls to the associated risks within each zone.

2.0 Scope
This policy applies to all CSX employees, temporary workers, independent contractors, and agents who use CSX Radio Resources.

3.0 Policy

3.1 General Use and Ownership

CSX Network Zone Definitions:

Red Zone:

This zone is defined as the most vulnerable and every measure to protect CSX assets that reside in the Red Zone must be taken, only a limited number of devices will be placed in this zone. The security focus within this segment will be on proactive prevention.

Green Zone:

This zone is defined as having a high vulnerability due to the public access required for business productivity.

Blue Zone:

This zones provides the highest level of protection.The Blue Zones will be segmented to allow for the highest level of availability. The security focus for Blue Zones will be on proactive monitoring and protection through the CSX Special agents.

[redside20]

So what does this mean for non railroad employees with scanners? will we all have to invest in digital scanners?

[NYC3001]

Very sadly, there is no scanner currently manufactured that will decode the NEXEDGE (NXDN) digital format. Moreover, you would have to know the encryption key that is being used for voice privacy (scrambling) mode. Federal law states that It is illegal to decode encrypted radio transmissions. Therefore, you would be breaking the law if you did so.

Even if you were to buy a Kenwood or ICOM NEXEDGE two-way radio, you would have the unit programmed. Then you have to know the correct Network Access Code (NAC), and if they decide to turn on their voice encryption you would be out of luck. From what I am hearing, CSX wants to run encryption all the time, which I think is crazy.

[esprrfan]

NS is getting new radios too

[LSRC]

Well, I don't own a scannner, and I've considered buying one, but it looks like I won't waste my money now.

[redside20]

I really don't think we have anything to worry about because the only your basic analog scanner receiver that would be obsolete out of this would like those pro 90 something radio shack models or an old bearcat scanner from uniden for example. If you own a transceiver or a two meter radio you will be just fine if you can figure out how to program it. a low end digital model would be like 120-200 dollar range.

[MDH]

I really don't think we have anything to worry about because the only your basic analog scanner receiver that would be obsolete out of this would like those pro 90 something radio shack models or an old bearcat scanner from uniden for example. If you own a transceiver or a two meter radio you will be just fine if you can figure out how to program it. a low end digital model would be like 120-200 dollar range.

Uh, were you paying attention? Even if you somehow got access to the encryption key (which is unlikely) it'd be illegal to use it. Risking federal charges for a hobby isn't worth it to me (on the FCC violations - they can be pretty nasty about those things). So basically we're all SOL once they fully convert over which will totally suck. (and sounds like it'll be soon than later) For me, not being able to "listen in" via scanner will be completely devestating to the efficiency of my railfanning. Today I can leave home, flip on the scanner and drive to where I know a train will be for a good picture (and quite literally spend the day doing just that). In the future - without a scanner it'd be a total crap shot. Drive somewhere, hope a train comes while perhaps 15min away I'm missing out on something cool because I can't hear it...

ATCS to the rescue? Well, not likely. Just look at what happened to ATCS with the new "black hole" around the North Baltimore block swap yard. Wanna bet they haven't bothered hassling railfans w/ATCS because they eventually plan to switch it all over to satellite service or encrypted? I figured this day would eventually come (so to speak) that our ability to hear what's going on would eventually go away - especially in our post 911 fear driven society.

Michael

[redside20]

Ok i was wrong...i had no idea what encryption meant...now i know..thanks for clearing that up.

[GTW6401]

This is all apart of the new phase of digital radio communications, but I don't believe that it will be implemented in the time frame that the railroads are shooting for due to software testing and glitches.

Oakland County, Michigan has been switching over to the Open Sky digital system, which is similar to the system being eyed by the railroads. The first radios were placed in use almost two years ago and the majority are being placed into use now due to software glitches.

Another aspect to the digital system is cost. The portable radios police officers are using cost $3500 a piece, so think of the cost replacing all the portable radios and in locomotives.

I have been using a digital scanner for around 2 years now for fire department radio traffic.

Ive found that the quality and reception is much worst now than it was on the old analog system, with most basic digital scanners in the 400 to 500 dollar range.

[M.D.Bentley]

All you have to do is get a job on the railroad and they give you a radio to use ! How can you beat that ! FREE radio, job on the RR, what more could you want? Just give the scanner industry a little time and they will come up with a way to monitor the railroads again.

[NYC3001]

In the future - without a scanner it'd be a total crap shot. Drive somewhere, hope a train comes while perhaps 15min away I'm missing out on something cool because I can't hear it.
Michael

A friend of mine who is a Ham Radio Operator, and very much into RF fox hunts says that he has a way around this problem. According to Tony, since most trains call off their location every so often, they have to transmit a signal. Even though they will be using digital modulation in the future, you can still determine what line the signal is on by the signal strength meter, especially away from large metropolitan areas. Likewise, you can point a directional beam antenna around and find the strongest signal. However, it may come to the point that our automobiles will start looking like storm chasing vehicles in the Plains States, with all the specialized antennas and monitoring equipment mounted on the roofs.

Seriously though, Tony and several of his Ham friends who are also into railfaning in the Chicago area, use their radio equipment to coordinate their chasing and photography opportunities. They use the 70cm and 2 meter bands to keep each other posted on what is happening, either on simplex or through a repeater. In the future, Tony and his friends predict that this will become the way railfans coordinate their activities, along with Twitter to keep them posted on the location of trains, especially steam excursions.

[TrainWatcher]

Sad to see that CSX and all the railroads will be ungrading out to digital. I guess its back to watching the SIGNALS! Thats atleast one relieable way if your not in a Dark Territory.

[conrailmike]

I don't think it's a "choice" of going digital, the government is slowly pushing all communications to go digital. Just like the transition from analog TV to digital - now those frequencies that TV used are "empty" so to speak and they can be leased or sold for a profit.

As for the security measures, MDH has it right.... we're afraid of our own shadows now and we have the government and the media to thank for that.

[redside20]

I don't think it's a "choice" of going digital, the government is slowly pushing all communications to go digital. Just like the transition from analog TV to digital - now those frequencies that TV used are "empty" so to speak and they can be leased or sold for a profit.

As for the security measures, MDH has it right.... we're afraid of our own shadows now and we have the government and the media to thank for that.

well i guess i can say that its not the end of the world, life does go on..i guess the moral of the story not to jump to conclusions when a story first blows up...oops bad pun

[signmasters]

http://www.railcom.net/fcc_rr_qa.htm

[A No.1]

Anyone know if the Rail Roads will go Digital with their radios any time soon?

Just wondering how that will affect out scanners. Does any one even make digital scanners?

[rob]

i got my digital radio last year and csx keep asking us what radio we have. no date that i heard but it must be soon.

rob

[Mr. Tops]

Here's some info from the IlliniRails Yahoo group regarding narrowband/digital radios that may or may not help...

===

"Railroads who hold an FFC radio license that will expire before 2013, will change over to narrowband when they renew their new license. As far as the scanners, you will get alot of background & interference noise. You will only get parts of the conversations."

"Scanning wouldn't be a problem if you own a newer one that is narrow-band compatible. Older scanners would have to be programmed to the nearest possible channel and there will be some quality loss."

"This has NO impact on amateur radio. It shouldn't impact voice communications for quite some time. I WOULD expect, however, to start seeing the railroads (and others) begin switching to digital voice which WILL render most analog equipment useless in the same way that the switch to digital TV would have rendered all analog television sets useless without the converter boxes."

[ConrailForever]

I've heard CSX plans to switch to digital by the conclusion of 2010. Whether or not this is true, I can't say for sure. Just sharing things I've seen around other forums. Speaking of which, as of now, there are no portable/handheld scanners that are equipped for these digital transmissions. Please correct me if I'm wrong/mislead!