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So, Im guessing we will have to get actual hand held transmitter / receiver units just like the train crews will be carrying if we cant get compatable scanners.

JUST AARON wrote:So, Im guessing we will have to get actual hand held transmitter / receiver units just like the train crews will be carrying if we cant get compatable scanners.

Check out this thread from December:

http://www.railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewto ... 15&t=16012

The short version is that if they go to encrypted digital we're all screwed and even if you did somehow get something setup to listen in it would be a federal crime to do so as an unauthorized person...

i.e. welcome back to railfanning in the 1950's but (mostly) without the friendly employees to help out!

This zones provides the highest level of protection.The Blue Zones will be segmented to allow for the highest level of availability. The security focus for Blue Zones will be on proactive monitoring and protection through the CSX Special agents.

This doesn't bode well for trainwatchers.

As for the security measures, MDH has it right.... we're afraid of our own shadows now and we have the government and the media to thank for that.

Be afraid. Be very afraid. Paranoia is patriotic.

So much for knowing symbols... That's the most annoying part to me.

Regarding encryption - read through towards the bottom of this thread on Trainorders for some good/interesting comments:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... ?9,2115339

Michael

Hopefully, by the time everything on CSX and other RRs use these types of radios they will come up with a way to listen to them. People panicked when municipalities went to digital and the 800 megahertz band. Yet they came up with a way to listen within these types of radios to.

I really have a hard time believing that the railroads are willing to pay for the encryption technology 100% of the time. With all the run through power, and joint operation, I see places like Chicago causing at least the sharing of the encryption settings, if not the complete abandonment of the encryption on road channels. Sure C&S, and MOW, etc channels could be encrypted but i think the "common channels" will still be wide open.

I happen to hold an FCC licence to repair receiver transmitters from back in my Army days. All I can say about the encryption is, GOOD LUCK, Your not going to get around it unless you have the proper keys.

The military was using frequency hopping for encrypted transitions. Unless you had the WORD of DAY (Frequencies used during hopping)/ TIME of DAY (Speed of the hop) for that day, You were out of luck. And it changed every day. I am sure the technology has gotten more advance since then.

Just like the State and most local police have already done. I don't think we'll be listening in.

JUST AARON wrote:I don't think we'll be listening in.

Right, but lets look at GR for example. CSX will need to share their stuff with the GDLK, Amtrak, GRE, MQT, MS... Etc... The cost factor i still see as being tooo prohibitive.

amtrak1007 wrote:

JUST AARON wrote:I don't think we'll be listening in.

Right, but lets look at GR for example. CSX will need to share their stuff with the GDLK, Amtrak, GRE, MQT, MS... Etc... The cost factor i still see as being tooo prohibitive.

From what I've seen the railroads are all going to the same suppliers for their new radios. Kenwood appears to be getting most of the business from the UP and CSX for the portable radios. If the FCC is in charge of encryption on the channels, seems like a pretty easy modification to a radio to have this capability. I'm sure there will be uniform rules across the country, much as there will be with the PTC mandate so you don't have problems with compatability.

Practice Safe CSX

CSX_CO wrote:

amtrak1007 wrote:

JUST AARON wrote:I don't think we'll be listening in.

Right, but lets look at GR for example. CSX will need to share their stuff with the GDLK, Amtrak, GRE, MQT, MS... Etc... The cost factor i still see as being tooo prohibitive.

From what I've seen the railroads are all going to the same suppliers for their new radios. Kenwood appears to be getting most of the business from the UP and CSX for the portable radios. If the FCC is in charge of encryption on the channels, seems like a pretty easy modification to a radio to have this capability. I'm sure there will be uniform rules across the country, much as there will be with the PTC mandate so you don't have problems with compatability.

Practice Safe CSX

either way, then the encryption info will eventually be public (if the railroads want it or not) and the NXDN spec will be available to those who need/want it....

CSX will be taking the first step to completely digital radio transmissions by switching to narrowband operations (12.5 kHz steps between frequencies) in 2011.

In April, the Atlanta, Florence, Jacksonville, and Nashville divisions will switch over, followed by Great Lakes, Huntington, and Louisville in June, and finally, Albany, Baltimore, and Chicago divisions in September.

Note: These are NOT digital transmissions, and most conventional scanners and radios will still be able to receive CSX's transmissions after the cut-over dates. This does mean however that any connecting railroads will also have to be capable of making narrowband transmissions.

More info can be found on the RailScan Yahoo! Group.

CSX is going to narrowband beginning next year, it's fairly official now. Check out RailScan. Unfortunately this will render older scanners obsolete for railroad monitoring.

NOTE: This is not digital but analog in a tighter spacing - 12.5 kHz instead of 15.

Norfolk Southern Railroad Police, have been using Nexedge Digital mode more frequently on their radios lately. This is especially true on 160.560 MHz, in and around the state of Michigan. The Dearborn Dispatcher is usually in the clear, but the mobile radios have been using their digital mode more often over the past few weeks.

According to an inside source, not only are they using Nexedge digital modulation, but there is also a layer of encryption on their channels, to prevent other railroad employees from eavesdropping on their conversations. Likewise, they will be receiving their new Motorola MTX-5000 mobile radios, so they can communicate on 800 MHz, with the various public safety first responders around the Great Lakes region. This will allow NS Police to communicate over vast distances that are not currently possible on VHF-High band.

Some time ago, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) issued a mandate that all two-way radio systems migrate from "wideband" to "narrowband" operation. This was needed to reduce channel congestion by creating more radio channels. Effective January 1, 2013, the use of "wideband" channels becomes ILLEGAL, and all radio users must be migrated to "narrowband" channels by that date. Thereafter, the FCC intends to require a migration from "narrowband" to "very narrowband", but that is several years off in the future. However, both the FCC and the AAR are encouraging railroads to take the step to "very narrowband" as soon as possible.

Under the present plan, the FREQUENCIES which the railroads are operating on will NOT be changing, however the bandwidth of their signals will become narrower. Existing scanners will receive these narrower radio signals, but the received audio will sound very "weak" on a wideband scanner.

The railroad industry has been preparing for this migration. Norfolk Southern has indicated that they be cutting its entire Dearborn Division over to narrowband on September 7, 2011. CSX Transportation will be cutting over most all of its MICHIGAN base stations to narrowband on November 8, 2011; with the exception of Toledo Subdivision and Lincoln Secondary (October 11, 2011), and the Porter Branch (September 13, 2011).

New radios being purchased by the railroads are "tri-mode" capable, meaning they can work on wideband, narrowband, and very narrowband channels at the push of a button. (No wideband after 01/01/2013). The "very narrowband" channels are DIGITAL and utilize the NXDN protocol. No scanners are presently manufactured which receive NXDN digital protocol.

Forgive this question but I do not have a scanner. Does this mean some if not all of the older scanners will be unable to pick up communications?

AARR wrote:Forgive this question but I do not have a scanner. Does this mean some if not all of the older scanners will be unable to pick up communications?

Once the railroads go digital, ALL older scanners will become obsolete. But for the upcoming narrowband switch, older scanners will still be able to receive transmissions on the old wideband frequencies, but with degraded sound quality. From what little I've read, the narrowband switch may also hamper scanners' selectivity, which is a scanner's ability to reject erroneous frequencies, resulting in interference, as mentioned in RRTTF's post above.

cbehr91 wrote:

AARR wrote:Forgive this question but I do not have a scanner. Does this mean some if not all of the older scanners will be unable to pick up communications?

Once the railroads go digital, ALL older scanners will become obsolete. But for the upcoming narrowband switch, older scanners will still be able to receive transmissions on the old wideband frequencies, but with degraded sound quality. From what little I've read, the narrowband switch may also hamper scanners' selectivity, which is a scanner's ability to reject erroneous frequencies, resulting in interference, as mentioned in RRTTF's post above.

Which is gonna suck for those of us who rely on them to hear the signals being called, I guess its back to watching the signals.

What are their plans for the defect detectors? That's usually a pretty good hint that somethings coming.

hoborich wrote:What are their plans for the defect detectors? That's usually a pretty good hint that somethings coming.

They will be going narrowband as well.

Yours truly,

Ron