Derailment in downtown Wauseon, OH

[esprrfan]

Melburn was straight track

[MSchwiebert]

It'd be interesting to see the ton mile figures, The NS line is obviously very high for a double track railroad, but I'd think the B&O from say Deshler to Greenwich is right up there too. Not saying that the NS Waterlevel side isn't higher, but with it and the NKP side, (compared to just the former B&O for CSX) there are two routes to "spread" some of the tonnage over.
In any event, if there's an on-line source for that data it'd be good to see!

None happened at diamonds, all happened at crossovers (not sure about Melbern though). If you have an equipment problem it is most likely to happen at a switch. Keep in mind that the Chicago line is the busiest double track mainline east of the Mississippi and possibly the country so something is bound to happen. Ton-Miles wise I am betting that the derailments are right in line with other routes if broken into percentages.

[bdconrail29]

Just as a guess, I'd say the tonnage between Willard and Fostoria is much higher than that of anywhere on the Waterlevel line. Most of the traffic on the Toledo West is intermodal, whereas CSX has more freight trains and powder river coal.

However, with as many symbols as NS runs and as fast as the track speed is, accidents will happen.

[willardgarrett]

It'd be interesting to see the ton mile figures, The NS line is obviously very high for a double track railroad, but I'd think the B&O from say Deshler to Greenwich is right up there too. Not saying that the NS Waterlevel side isn't higher, but with it and the NKP side, (compared to just the former B&O for CSX) there are two routes to "spread" some of the tonnage over.
In any event, if there's an on-line source for that data it'd be good to see!

I have a rough map that just shows tonnage averages, but both the CSX and the NS chicago lines across Ohio show the same tonnage range, as one would assume. However, it does show CSX hauling more traffic south to New York. I do agree with you though, NS has the shorter route from chicago-new york, pretty much straight across, whereas CSX has the B&O, which requires going south from chicago, and then going north from cleveland, and coming back down to New York/NJ. It also seems that the B&O has twice as many diamonds as the CHI line, and there seem to be more mishaps on the B&O (engine failures blocking diamonds, track components breaking, etc...) from what I have heard. All of this should mean that CSX would get lower priority traffic, which happens to be heavier, and NS would have more potential to grow, with traffic shifting from carloads and coal to stacks and pigs. However, with the NORBAL intermodal terminal and the national gateway, CSX will see more high priority traffic in the future. I don't know if NS will do anything to compete with this, but it sure could make for some interesting speculation, I guess.

[t.winx]

Just as a guess, I'd say the tonnage between Willard and Fostoria is much higher than that of anywhere on the Waterlevel line. Most of the traffic on the Toledo West is intermodal, whereas CSX has more freight trains and powder river coal.

However, with as many symbols as NS runs and as fast as the track speed is, accidents will happen.

I can't imagine Willard - Fostoria sees more tonnage than Elkhart - Goshen. I bet CSX runs heavier trains, but the 80+ train average this section sees should make up for the difference. How many Powder River Coal loads does the CSX get out of Chicago? NS gets at least a couple trains a day on average, most of them for Detroit and Toledo.

[railohio]

Keep in mind that the Chicago line is the busiest double track mainline east of the Mississippi and possibly the country so something is bound to happen.

Don't forget the Union Pacific across northern Illinois, either. He did say east of the Mississippi, not east of Chicago. I'd wager that the Geneva Sub east of Nelson is busier than the Chicago Line.

Going purely by train count, too, I'm sure there's commuter territory out East that's just as busy as the Chicago Line.

[penn central]

Hello Tyler when i did my 24 at Fostoria saw three loaded coal trains come from Chicago N954 for Essixville Mi, A loaded Detroit Edison coal train I think it's N8??, And a neat loaded train with UP power about midnight, The power was in UP's 7000 series witch was AC6000CW's if they haven't been derated he made a straight move on the Willard sub. And for what it's worth there was a loaded coal train that came up the Columbus sub and made the turn and headed for Chicago.

[bdconrail29]

I'm not talking about Elkhart-Goshen. I'm talking Wauseon.

[JoJames]

Just as a guess, I'd say the tonnage between Willard and Fostoria is much higher than that of anywhere on the Waterlevel line. Most of the traffic on the Toledo West is intermodal, whereas CSX has more freight trains and powder river coal.

However, with as many symbols as NS runs and as fast as the track speed is, accidents will happen.

I can't imagine Willard - Fostoria sees more tonnage than Elkhart - Goshen. I bet CSX runs heavier trains, but the 80+ train average this section sees should make up for the difference. How many Powder River Coal loads does the CSX get out of Chicago? NS gets at least a couple trains a day on average, most of them for Detroit and Toledo.

Fostoria to Greenwitch is also in the 80+ a day train count. Also lots of coal. Loaded coal trains traverse all four transfers at Fostoria. CSX also receives at least two to three loaded powder river coal trains a day in Chicago. In the last 48 hours the following loaded coal trains were received at Chicago. N-990 N-891 N-859 N-891 V-771 N-859 N-990 V-891 N-954 V-740 that more than qualifies for a average of three a day.

[Jochs]

Geez...isn't this like 3 derailments for the NS in a couple of weeks in Ohio. Someone better send the FRA out for an audit.

Couldn't resist...seems like if there is a CSX derailment the typical "CSX needs too keep their track up better" comes out. Too bad people don't realize NS has just the same number of derailments...

Practice Safe CSX

Actually about the 4th Major pile up within a hundred or so miles of track this year on the Chicago main. Butler (NS 206 van train derailed Feb '10), Waterloo (NS 680 coal train derailed March '10) and Melbern (NS 18M manifest derailed April '10)...

At least they skipped a few months after that "one a month" stretch!

And I didn't even count the mess over in Cleveland on the ex-NKP the other day.

To your point - yeah, haven't noticed many comments about that anywhere.

So where can we expect the next derailment.???? The next crossover east of Wauseon?? Around Christmas or around New Year's Day? (I'm kidding, if one does happen there next month, don't blame me! )

[howeld]

I have worked at North Baltimore next to tracks Mon-Weds. I have been keeping track of the trains that pass.
Monday 22nd 7am to 5:45pm 15 trains passed
Tuesday 23rd 7am to 4:45pm 18 trains passed
Wednesday 24th 7am to 1pm 17 trains passed (4 were NS reroutes)

so from these numbers there would only be 40-50 trains per 24 hours on the CSX line. This is only one location on the railroad and perhaps there are more trains at night.

I'm working there for the next 2-3 weeks 10 hours a day 6 days a week and I keep notes on what trains pass, lead engine number, train ID if I hear it, and time of passage.

[willardgarrett]

Yeah, I think that 80 trains per day is a bit high for both lines. I would say more like 55-60 on the NS and 45-50 on the B&O from what I saw through Deshler. Then again, some people claim that the CN mainline through michigan sees 25 trains per day, which is totally off base. Once again, maybe I'm wrong.

[MagnumForce]

Should have stated East of Chicago, the UP from Chicago to Clinton is surely busier and I completely overlooked it.

[bdconrail29]

You're right, 80 trains/day is way way too high. I'd say including the connection traffic at Oak Harbor, maybe 60 if you have a great day. B&O east of Fostoria, probably 50/day. These figures are well supported by the many logs that I have taken at all hours of the day. For instance, from 8pm-8am I had 40 at Oak Harbor on a very good night, and John Lyon took over for me going from 8am-5pm and only had 22. So even on that day maybe 65. Usually there are less.

I dissected my logs from Attica, Greenwich, Deshler, and Fostoria, and I'd say 50 on each side at best. Another thing you can do is list all the symbols that would run on a given day, and guess at how many extras might run and it gives you a decent idea.

I still maintain that the overall tonnage on the Willard Sub is higher than that of the Toledo East and Toledo West districts, due to more loaded freight trains and powder river coal. On average on a typical 8-hour log, I've had a minimum 2 or 3 PRB coal every time. The tracks are visibly beat up more as well, but that is due to heavier trains and no Amtrak traffic (it's a class down).

So for anyone that's interested in guessing, why no derailments on the Willard or Garrett Subs as much? I think it's just luck. Q149 was the last derailment out west of Deshler wasn't it? But there still was one fairly recently.

[MagnumForce]

60-65 for NS and 50-55 for CSX sounds pretty much spot on to me. I know 50-55 is spot on for Defiance, I know NS is very similar plus a few.

[willardgarrett]

I still maintain that the overall tonnage on the Willard Sub is higher than that of the Toledo East and Toledo West districts, due to more loaded freight trains and powder river coal. On average on a typical 8-hour log, I've had a minimum 2 or 3 PRB coal every time. The tracks are visibly beat up more as well, but that is due to heavier trains and no Amtrak traffic (it's a class down).

So for anyone that's interested in guessing, why no derailments on the Willard or Garrett Subs as much? I think it's just luck. Q149 was the last derailment out west of Deshler wasn't it? But there still was one fairly recently.

Are you sure the track is a whole class different? Having chased trains on the NS, I know intermodals do AT LEAST 60, and I chased western empties doing at least 55. 60MPH max for freight is FRA class "4" track. The next class down is class 3, which is max 40mph for freight, and I know that CSX goes faster than that. I assure you that both lines are Class 4, although, as my signature states, CSX's route has a ton of speed restrictions for diamonds and such, so CSX's designated timetable track speed may be lower. I am not sure what actual track speed in rural areas is for the CSX line.
I don't want to sound like an critical railfan here, but I agree that NS track appears to be better maintained/less worn. I noticed that west of the diamond on the Southern Track in Deshler, there's a transition from 136lb rail to 122lb rail heading east. I don't know how much of the B&O main is 122lb rail, but it seems odd that CSX wouldn't replace this. Maybe the 122# is just through the diamond. Then again, it seems like they'd replace that short section when the new diamond went in.
Regardless of looks, maybe CSX isn't so bad, considering the number of derailments on both lines.

[MSchwiebert]

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/PubAff ... _FINAL.pdf

Here's how the FRA track classes break down. Judging how things are run on both lines, I'd guess that both are FRA class 4.

[bdconrail29]

You're right. I was thinking with Amtrak and 79mph allowed for that was a different class than a non-Amtrak line, which I was incorrect. Thanks for the information though, I obviously didn't know that.

[t.winx]

You're right, 80 trains/day is way way too high. I'd say including the connection traffic at Oak Harbor, maybe 60 if you have a great day. B&O east of Fostoria, probably 50/day. These figures are well supported by the many logs that I have taken at all hours of the day. For instance, from 8pm-8am I had 40 at Oak Harbor on a very good night, and John Lyon took over for me going from 8am-5pm and only had 22. So even on that day maybe 65. Usually there are less.

I dissected my logs from Attica, Greenwich, Deshler, and Fostoria, and I'd say 50 on each side at best. Another thing you can do is list all the symbols that would run on a given day, and guess at how many extras might run and it gives you a decent idea.

I still maintain that the overall tonnage on the Willard Sub is higher than that of the Toledo East and Toledo West districts, due to more loaded freight trains and powder river coal. On average on a typical 8-hour log, I've had a minimum 2 or 3 PRB coal every time. The tracks are visibly beat up more as well, but that is due to heavier trains and no Amtrak traffic (it's a class down).

So for anyone that's interested in guessing, why no derailments on the Willard or Garrett Subs as much? I think it's just luck. Q149 was the last derailment out west of Deshler wasn't it? But there still was one fairly recently.

Goshen = Toledo West. Read: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19614

You said "anywhere on the Chicago Line" so I took that to mean the entire Chicago - PA main. It's not like it really matters anyways. I was just saying....

[JoJames]

CSX maintaines to class four standards. Yes their is lots of 122 lb rail. Most of it was installed in the seventies. For the traffic and tonnage it is doing quite well. The 136 lb rail layed when the second track was installed pre ConRail breakup is starting to show wear and tear. CSX also has some 141lb rail on the Willard and Garrett subs. Most of the NS line is 132 lb rail not much difference than the 122 lb on CSX. Train count between Greenwitch and Fostoria is around 70 a day. Most people do not realize how much traffic uses the southeast transfer at Fostoria. Also the peak traffic times on CSX is during the night time hours with afternoon being the slowest. Headlight to marker light during the wee hours of the day. I have had my fair share of fun times during the wee hours of the morning changing broken rails and watching the parade go by on the opposite track creating a mini blizzard while the temp hovers around zero or below.