NS Peavine talk

[heypal6878]

Limestone blast of 480 underground mine, five day a week operation. Northstar not sure if you have this right. MM is going to dig a tunnel under Broadwell Road the mine is going on the east side of the road yet next to the railroad tracks. This is all tied up in court now six years. Court ruled against the mine and now MM may appeal yet again. Anderson Township trustees what it, residents don't what a mess. Sure the CCET could in fact get the contract if the lawyers all agree that this is how the limestone needs to be transported yet the case has been tied up in the court system for so long who knows what is going to take place. By the time they get this all figured out NS may have already pulled the Peavine track.

[midland sub]

I would not get your hopes up stone leaving the CCET and going somewhere on NS. Remember NS makes the rates on all traffic on the CCET. The recent substantionsal rate increases NS did to Winchester and Huhtamkai are ugly and a statement of how they control the rates. The only thing CCET can set a rate on is if like there's a move from Plum Run to somewhere else on the CCET.

[northstar16]

MM is going to be blasting for Limestone in the underground mine. They want to blast during the day. MM says the blasting will not cause any shock waves and it is concentrated on a low charge. Yet the townships have looked at other MM sites and have talked to the people who live around the sites and they said something very different. On top of it property valuations go down because of the shocks, noise and road noise and dust.

The hold up now is six years and nothing has been decided. MM has owned the property for seven years and is itching to start work. The area communities don't want any more truck traffic on route 32 or on route 50 so a negotiating tool might be to haul limestone by rail instead of truck. Blasting is still a major concern yet MM said the blast will come from far underground and won't cause shocks. The other unseen factor is some of the property that MM wants t mine is on a old Rumpke trash dump that has been closed for several years. There are leaks coming from that site and area property owners are worried that blasting may only excel issues there on the dump site. So as you can see there are major issues face MM their lawyers and the township lawyers trying to figure out what and how to proceed. For the CCET if they play their cards right they can win on this entire deal. We are talking about a five day a week rail transportation of limestone. MM wants to buy up all the gravel pits in the area and start blasting as there is potential for major money for them. The holdup is can they win the communities over and how? I can forward you a link on this later today.

Now on the rates you say they are ugly? Does that mean the CCET is not going to move anymore traffic on the Peavine as they can't make any money. Does this mean that NS doesn't want the CCET to move product for their customers. If that is what you mean then the Peavine is done. The MM issue is much west of Plum Road like in Newtown. So are you meaning the CCET cannot set the rate only NS as this will become a new customer?

[OSRR]

I would not get your hopes up stone leaving the CCET and going somewhere on NS. Remember NS makes the rates on all traffic on the CCET. The recent substantionsal rate increases NS did to Winchester and Huhtamkai are ugly and a statement of how they control the rates. The only thing CCET can set a rate on is if like there's a move from Plum Run to somewhere else on the CCET.

Why would they raise the rates on traffic that they don't switch? (Switch the industry themselves is what I mean)

[northstar16]

Being in the shipping business like I am if there is a shipping increase we pass it on to the customer unless we rather keep a very good customer happy then we eat the increase or only increase is in a smaller dollar amount. What Midland Sub is saying the rate increase is ugly so I would gather the CCET is going to charge their customers more to transport as being a smaller railroad they can't eat the increase. Kind of makes me wonder what NS has up its sleeve. It appears they want to kill the business on the line completely so NS doesn't need to run trains out to Clare going forward. This way NS can file a discontinuous on the entire Peavine.

Here the CCET is trying harder to get business on the line that will only give NS more income but they way I see it NS doesn't want to honor the customers that the CCET has thus the end of the line is near.

Am I correct?

[midland sub]

When a Class 1 sells or leases a line to another company they put restrictions on the deal with the interchange and how the billing works. There's basically 2 types of set ups:

Switch Carrier/Junction Settlement:

Most operations like the CCET are set up as this with NS paying CCET a per car fee. NS does everything when it comes to setting the rate and billing the customer. CCET has nothing to do with the transaction other than spot and pull. Now CCET is able to set up a rate sheet for any extra special moves or switches which end up getting tacked onto what the freight bill is for the move. The I&O, a good chunk of the OC and CFE for example use this. Mostly it's part of the offer the Class 1 offered to take the line. For every car you move we give you X amount. This also requires the new operator continues to interchange everything with the Class 1. For example on the I&O's Midland Sub there's an extra $900 tariff tacked on for stuff not coming via CSX in Cincinnati. So basically in this situation and like with the CCET all you did was remove NS from actually spotting and pulling anything from Clare east. CCET can't do anything about what NS charges to the customer.

Interline/Settling Carrier:

Different set up where each rail company that moves a car sets up their own rates. Billing can be done by one carrier or each one that was part of the move. So lets say the CCET was set up this way and use Winchester for example on shipping grain to somewhere in North Carolina. NS gives Winchester a rate quote from Clare to the receiver in North Carolina. CCET gives Winchester a rate from Winchester to Clare. It all depends on how NS set up the lease or sale to the new operator.

The other is called Rule 11 and really isn't worth getting into here. Now there is option in a switch/junction set up the CCET is currently in. That's where a situation like if Evans decides they want to get stone from Plum Run and have it shipped to somewhere on the CCET before Clare. Since the traffic isn't leaving the CCET they are free to charge whatever they want and not share it with NS. Now let's say Martin Marietta wants to ship stone off the CCET to somewhere on NS. In that case NS sets up the entire rate and pays CCET a fee.

There's more to it, but that's the condensed version of it.

[midland sub]

Nope. I see where the issue is now with a you and heypal. The CCET is nothing more than a contractor for NS doing the grunt work. There's potential for CCET to make more money themselves by the storage stuff or traffic that doesn't leave the line. Otherwise it's up to NS to set the rates. Does that make sense? CCET can bust their butts and add more customers but they are stuck with whatever NS comes up with as a rate.

This is why NS Marketing is refusing to allow Lake Div operations to dump Sharonville to Clare. If they CCET to have access beyond Clare, CCET can access the I&O and through the I&O get access to CSX. Marketing doesn't want that to happen even though NS going to Clare is a waste of NS assets.

Being in the shipping business like I am if there is a shipping increase we pass it on to the customer unless we rather keep a very good customer happy then we eat the increase or only increase is in a smaller dollar amount. What Midland Sub is saying the rate increase is ugly so I would gather the CCET is going to charge their customers more to transport as being a smaller railroad they can't eat the increase. Kind of makes me wonder what NS has up its sleeve. It appears they want to kill the business on the line completely so NS doesn't need to run trains out to Clare going forward. This way NS can file a discontinuous on the entire Peavine.

Here the CCET is trying harder to get business on the line that will only give NS more income but they way I see it NS doesn't want to honor the customers that the CCET has thus the end of the line is near.

Am I correct?

[northstar16]

Very interesting! I didn't know how the rates were set and who sets them. Now I know...the CCET is just a mover NS has the leverage. NS sets the rates. Now I understand the issue with the I&O and CSX as well.

Well it will be interesting if the CCET can or will want to maintain the lease with NS for the set lease arrangement one, two or three years that will be coming up. I surely don't think NS will leave these customers high and dry looking for other transportation methods. But then again after reading all the headlines in the new releases in the last few days NS is cutting back, closing lines, cutting employees, consolidating and looking for any way shape or form to cut back. Meanwhile CP still thinks they can take over NS in a hostile take over by using shareholder leverage. Surely don't think that will happen. CP should just move on.

[midland sub]

NS could care less about the customers on the Peavine. Only reason the lease happened was the state of Ohio made a huge effort and investment in getting Huhtamkai moving into the old Ford plant. If the ORDC wouldn't have pushed so hard the line would be either dead or just a once a week trip by NS to Huhtamkai.

I had to chuckle reading Moorman's exclusive interview at Trains today. Typical of what happens when you get as far up as he was, you start believing you're the solution. He's the biggest reason they've fallen as far as they have. With all the cuts in the different crafts so far not a single manager has been cut that anyone knows of.....

[OSRR]

With all the cuts in the different crafts so far not a single manager has been cut that anyone knows of.....

Typical. Cutting transportation employees first seems to be the name of the game.

I'm pretty close to facing a layoff because of it.

[heypal6878]

My buddy works for NS in Atlanta and said they are so top heavy there and so much unproductivity it will blow your mind. In the spring and summer the VPs and there are many are out playing golf and never in the office. If you need something done one needs to leave a text or wait till the next day. I can see the new guy cutting the old guys with the company first then linemen, yard workers but he isn't going after the fat the guys who do nothing at the top. NS is going to cut themselves too thin and when business begins to pick up at the end of the year the guys they let go may be working for another rail company. Then there is the unions. NS best watch out or the union workers will strike then NS will have a real problem. The past president of the company feels he did everything right but really he was the start of the problem and now the other bonehead is in there making radical changes to save face. I just hope they can right the boat soon as from what I have read it doesn't look good for NS short term. Long team it is all about coal and oil and if and when things begin to pick up. It will be at least a year maybe two before things get back. Do you think this CEO is going to help or hurt the company.

Midland getting back to the Peavine, this is something I didn't know about the State of Ohio and the old Ford Plant. I didn't know that the State wanted NS to service the now paper plant at the Old Ford Plant. You are correct it appears that NS doesn't care about their customers on the Peavine or on any rail for that matter. Right now all they want to do is cut the little guy and save their butt.

[OSRR]

My buddy works for NS in Atlanta and said they are so top heavy there and so much unproductivity it will blow your mind. In the spring and summer the VPs and there are many are out playing golf and never in the office. If you need something done one needs to leave a text or wait till the next day. I can see the new guy cutting the old guys with the company first then linemen, yard workers but he isn't going after the fat the guys who do nothing at the top. NS is going to cut themselves too thin and when business begins to pick up at the end of the year the guys they let go may be working for another rail company. Then there is the unions. NS best watch out or the union workers will strike then NS will have a real problem. The past president of the company feels he did everything right but really he was the start of the problem and now the other bonehead is in there making radical changes to save face. I just hope they can right the boat soon as from what I have read it doesn't look good for NS short term. Long team it is all about coal and oil and if and when things begin to pick up. It will be at least a year maybe two before things get back. Do you think this CEO is going to help or hurt the company.

Yes, NS is way to top heavy. We have near 30 transportation people layed off last I checked, I'd say few of them will be back.

Noting the strike, if I'm not mistaken, there was legislation passed that makes a railroad strike VERY unlikely.

[midland sub]

NS refused to switch them more than once a week so that's when the ORDC got involved to help.

Running a business the size of NS is difficult. Heck running a business out of an old beat up truck hauling junk and mowing grass in the summer is probably just as tough. It's easy to sit and type out our thoughts and opinions, but to make everything work like it can is the hard part. Technology will change, business will come and go, but the world keeps moving.

[midland sub]

That's the one thing that will never change in this industry. The furloughs and ups and downs. Hold on as long as you can for as quickly everything changed, just as quickly things pick back up. I hope you can hang on.

[OSRR]

That's the one thing that will never change in this industry. The furloughs and ups and downs. Hold on as long as you can for as quickly everything changed, just as quickly things pick back up. I hope you can hang on.

I have been told (but I haven't seen actual proof) that there was a lawsuit brought against the EPA regarding the stranglehold on coal fired power plants. This case was won in favor of the power plants and such.

So maybe one of these days coal will come back... In my opinion, it will have to. Cheap natural gas can't last forever.

I'll hang on best I can.. even if I do get layed off I'll be back. I enjoy the job.

[heypal6878]

Here`s a little blurb off the Indiana site from this morning...

This week, CN stepped up to the plate and gave a tremendous rate for us to move 4000 ton of yellow jacket (scrap gas pipe) out of Central Canada to a mill in the Central US. Meanwhile, NS lost a bunch of our traffic out of Canada to US to everyone's whipping post CSXT - Why? CSXT stepped up with the rates needed while NS jacked their rate. NS also lost more of our traffic due to rates - a NS direct move with a shortline origin switch is switching to a FOUR shortline move. The 4 shortlines have stepped up to provide an alphabet soup route that is $600 per car CHEAPER than NS.

CN turns in the best numbers, and they are wheeling and dealing and going after every single car shipment they can. NS turns in the worst number, and are doing their level best to run traffic off and rid themselves of pesky single car traffic. Hmmm, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I wonder if maybe, just maybe, each road's strategy is somehow impacting their results.




Pretty much says it all. Kind of makes one think is NS going the wrong way here.

[Muleskinner]

Hopefully the VP's at NS will cause NS's down fall for a take over. If not, someone should clean out the upper brass & get someone in there that will work & not spend the money at the golf course & strip joints! I have seen idiots like that in other company's that cause them to get taken over or go out of business.

[Muleskinner]

https://youtu.be/_UCMG00JDlg

This video is from the good old days when NW ran things on the Peavine.

Its sad to see things now the way they are in railroading!

[h2466]

[quote="Muleskinner" If not, someone should clean out the upper brass & get someone in there that will work & not spend the money at the golf course & strip joints![/quote]
!&%##!! golf courses and strip joints! The downfall of the America. Ken

[M.D.Bentley]

As bad as it sounds. It is a business decision and nothing more. Regardless of how the railfan community feels, they ( the RR's ) must keep the stockholders happy. If and when traffic increases and the route is needed again, trains will reappear on the Peavine.............
OR you can hike/bike/walk the Peavine mountain trail......