NS Peavine talk

[midland sub]

Certainly NS has no intentions of abandoning the east end of the line nor was it at the top of the list of the 1,000 plus miles NS announced last year it was planning on getting rid of. A&K Track Materials hirailed and inspected the line to inventory the property's scrap value for practice.... The world is full of junk cars and abandoned buildings that all eventually go away in due time.

Midland are you saying the CET has nine customers on the Peavine? Three that I know of maybe four surely not nine. If they continue to stay strong in the storage business I wonder if they will try

NS has never indicated any intention of selling or pulling the line east of Plum Run

[heypal6878]

Midland I'm confused. You say NS doesn't have intentions of abandoning the east end of the line on the Peavine, Clearly they don't have any intentions of saving the line, fixing the line or ever using the line anymore. I thought by now that part of the line would be put up for bid. Yet my guy tells me that NS has no intention of putting the east end of the line up for bid this year. Clearly the cost of fixing the line is not in NS plans. There is no way the CCET is going to invest any money in fixing the east end of that line. Scrap it well maybe clearly that has been done many times before on other NS lines. The State doesn't want part of the line taken away but what is the objective of keeping the far eastern part of the line if in fact it will take millions to fix it?

[midland sub]

Sarcasm..... Who knows whenever NS will get around to abandoning east of Plum Run, but as we've beat this dead horse into a pile of bones it just won't go away.

[Muleskinner]

Sarcasm..... Who knows whenever NS will get around to abandoning east of Plum Run, but as we've beat this dead horse into a pile of bones it just won't go away.

Oh, it's going away, actually its being taken over by mother nature. trees and weeds are now starting to take over the line east of Plum. Of course with winter coming it will be put on hold till next spring.

[MQT1223]

The attitude that NS has towards lines such as the Peavine makes me wonder why railroads 30-40 years ago didn't have similar attitudes. If you mothball a line the infrastructure is left behind with little to no maintenance and could be reactivated if money and traffic demands it. Saluda and the West Virginia Secondary (albeit briefly) also come to mind. Conrail, CSX and countless others abandoned routes that today would've been more beneficial to the national rail network. Now however they are too expensive to reinstall.

Why the attitude change on abandonment vs. mothballing intact through routes?

[northstar16]

Pere you make a good valid point about Conrail, CSX and countless others abandoned routes that today would've been more beneficial to the national rail network. Pulling up tracks is a good fix for mothball tracks yet looking to the future when new business open up and need rail transport and need to rely on trucking is a big missed opportunity for the rails transportation. When tracks are pulled and the property sold off there is no way any railroad would repurchase the property in the future. But then again we don't run a railroad and these Presidents and CEOS plus the bean counters look for the best way to save the railroads money and keep their shareholders happy.

[Muleskinner]

The attitude that NS has towards lines such as the Peavine makes me wonder why railroads 30-40 years ago didn't have similar attitudes. If you mothball a line the infrastructure is left behind with little to no maintenance and could be reactivated if money and traffic demands it. Saluda and the West Virginia Secondary (albeit briefly) also come to mind. Conrail, CSX and countless others abandoned routes that today would've been more beneficial to the national rail network. Now however they are too expensive to reinstall.

Why the attitude change on abandonment vs. mothballing intact through routes?

It's called "greed" Presidents & CEOS of the railroads just want more money in their pockets so they cut employees and abandon lines that need repair. Some lines they just cannot abandon though because its their bread and butter.

[CAPTAIN]

Last Saturday, I drove up to look at the track condition to the Plum Run quarry. There is a small overpass on SR 32 over the Peavine, just east of Mendenhall Road. There was a cut of the rail on the north side of this overpass that I noticed was no longer there. I was told that Preston Smith had this repaired while he was managing CCET. Continuing on to Plum Run (Hanson), I noticed what everyone else has: about 4 inches or more of stone over the top of the rails. I can't imagine this in itself would pose more than an inconvenience. The condition of the roadbed and ties is anyone's guess. How far into the plant cars would have to go to be loaded, I couldn't tell.

After inspecting the Plum Run site, I drove along Portsmouth Road, to SR 73, until the track and SR 73 divert. I saw lots of good looking rail, at least from the road. Sure, there were some bad spots, but even they didn't look all that bad. I think it was Rarden, where there was a long siding that looked like a good place for storage. I'm not sure how much work it would take to get access from the quarry to Rarden, but if there is $$$ to be made in storage, that looked good.

Mt. Zion, just east of Winchester, was packed and stacked with mostly tanker cars, but there were a few grain cars, too. I don't know if Spud owns them. I thought he bought some cars last year. When I looked at Winchester Ag, there were no cars there that I could see. I was told Spud may double or triple his capacity there. Given the layout, I'd be interested in how that would look.

Just observations.

[Paw95]

I got videos on YouTube of the rarden siding and outside of rarden on both ends. The rails do look great in that area

[heypal6878]

I been up that way this summer and for the most part the tracks are in good shape. Sure there are spot where there needs to be some work but over all the tracks are not bad. The tracks haven't been used in years yet mother nature hasn't destroyed them very much. To get that part of the track in working order would still take millions to repair various bridges including the major repair at Vera. Who knows what shape that bridge is in before anything heavy can go over it. The washouts over the years from floods under the railroad bridge could be pretty bad. Repairs would be costly to firm it up I would think yet if there is a need for the Peavine it can open again. NS has not sold off the rail and I don't think it will. So there must be a hold up as summer has come and gone and nothing has been done with that part of the line. My guy said NS is not going to let it go just yet. So we shall see!

[midland sub]

Winchester didn't acquire any cars, there's deal with DJJX that has grain cars stored on the CCET and Winchester pays a fee to use them per trip. They seem to load 10-12 cars at a time. Whoever runs that old switcher they use got the scare of his life a few weeks ago. CCET lets them out on the main to help switch out loads for empties. They didn't have the air set on the cars and once they pulled out onto the main they and the loads took a quick trip out towards Seaman before they ran into a cut of storage cars.

CCET didn't put the rail under the 32 overpass back in. It was at the edge of Seaman and they thought they wouldn't get caught by NS, but they failed to realize there's still a handful of NS employees that live out that way or have relatives out there. Needless to say they had to retrieve the cut of tank cars they had stored east of Seaman and the rail was cut again. That empty tank car that got away from them and rolled thru Seaman derailed on that rail, which was a good thing as who knows how far it would have rolled east.

The problem with Plum Run is it's too far from Cincinnati for the stone move to make sense. If the stone there was some special grade that wasn't available in the Cincy area then maybe there's a chance. But with all the area quarries, whatever comes off the Ohio River plus Melvin Stone there's just no demand. Maybe one of these years Evans might come up with something. Track wise it's been 30 years or more since they shipped stone from there. You would have to rehab everything inside the quarry. The old loader was all the way at the south side of the quarry where the tracks wound around to reach. They could build something just inside the quarry if anyone ever figures out a demand for stone.

[northstar16]

Midland I would agree with you on the Stone Company out at Plum Road. I really don't think the CCET will ever go out that far east and that stone out there isn't much different that Evans has in Newtown.

I did hear a few months ago that some cars derailed out east when kids cut the lines and the cars got away and moved east which really could have been a big mess if they hit a car at a crossing. Didn't hear about this latest development.

If I worked for NS and was retired I wouldn't rat out the CCET for storing cars out east. The rails way out that way don't get used much so what is the big deal. The CCET is trying to make a few buck on rails that NS doesn't even use. If I lived out that way and by a train track retired from a railroad I wouldn't mind seeing a train every now and then. Beats looking at rusty tracks.

NS continues to bring tankers down to Clare every week so the storage business is booming for the CCET. They must have good connections in the empty tanker business.

[midland sub]

The bigger LP tank cars are always coming and going in and out of storage depending on the weather and market demand.

The issue with CCET putting that rail back in service has nothing to do with someone ratting them out. It's the unprofessional and seat of their pants crap way they operate. That car they did get loose only derailed because NS had cut the rail. What about the liability to NS if the rail wasn't cut and and it rolled south towards Rarden or wherever and hit someone? You don't sue poor people or companies, you go after the ones with deep pockets. That car never should have been able to get loose like it did if CCET did the proper procedures. There's a town in Canada with 47 less people alive because of a company with a similar mindset of what safety means...

[heypal6878]

Midland you're correct that it was a misplay on the CCET not a responsible act for sure and it could have turned out much differently. I know attorneys go after the deep pockets have seen in many times in the beverage business. One mistake could be very costly or deadly. Dealing with railroad cars not properly secured can become fatal.

I took a road trip yesterday out east along the Peavine. I saw growth of weeds and small trees that sprang up on the tracks over the years the rails look ok in spots but in other spots washed out. Overall not that bad but after 14 plus years will the rails support a engine or two, I would say not in the current condition. A run away rail car could have been deadly as some of the crossing signals don't work, kids play on the tracks, people even walk on the tracks up that way saw it yesterday. Who would expect a train car coming down the track when one is walking in the opposite direction. A serious safety concern that should be looked into and investigated for sure. But will it? Not sure who regulates issues like these. Since the CCET operates that track on a least and NS still owns the track how would that be handled? Would there be a fine? This is the second derail but the first one was not the CCET fault. This last one was a lack of responsibility on the part of the CET. Not someone ratting them out.

After watching safety NS videos they were on top of it doing a cut off on the line. It there was no cut off NS would be responsible. NS really takes safety to the highest level which in fact most larger railroads do as well. Smaller short lines most likely have safety videos but I'm sure they cut corners to make some extra money. Clearly the CCET should not be able to use rail that NS hasn't lease them out east. If they want more rails for storage they can get it from NS with a letter to the proper department.

Meanwhile on storage why does the CCET only get tankers? Can't they get box cars, or coal cars since coal is not that much in demand.

[h2466]

I really think they should weld all the wheel sets down to the railhead on stored cars, thus preventing them from moving if cut loose.

[OSRR]

Meanwhile on storage why does the CCET only get tankers? Can't they get box cars, or coal cars since coal is not that much in demand.

Most hoppers are Class 1 owned. Why pay someone to store them when you can put the in siding somewhere or an old un-used part of a yard. I'd say most box cars are used.. probably not enough of a surplus.

Most tanks you find in storage were built for the oil/gas industry when it was booming, then the bottom fell out and the third party owners of the cars (non railroads) have no where to put them. Shortlines make a decent profit (I would like to think anyway) from this business.

[midland sub]

It's just who Frontier works with on what ends up stored. Obviously with the turn down in the oil traffic there were still hundreds of new tank cars int he process of being built when the downturn hit. Plus all the older ones need retro fitted with the end guards. As OSRR said the Class 1s can store their own cars. Don't be surprised to see CSX and NS hoppers in coal service end up with private leasing company reporting marks as both shrink their fleets. There's thousands upon thousands of coal hoppers in storage out west. Owned by leasing companies that the utility companies terminate the leases early. Most are aluminum body cars under 15 years old and most will end up scrapped versus sold. They aren't worth the value that they're on the books for so depending on the accounting of the owners most will end up scrapped. There's a lot of centerbeams in storage that have never made a revenue move.

[northstar16]

I was wondering as well about coal cars. Coal shipments are way down for NS and I know there are empty cars sitting somewhere in storage. Same for CSX who has several thousand coal cars. Would think the CCET would get some around here but maybe not. Even if they did there isn't many more places to store cars on the siding that the CCET has right now. NS continues to bring more tankers weekly then every so often some make it back to Clare Yard when needed.

Sorry if I ticked anyone off about the CCET and getting ratted out. I misspoke here. Maybe had too many glasses of wine. Safety is a major concern for railroads and the CCET was wrong to store cars on tracks that NS didn't let them have under their contract. The car that got away could have been a disaster if that car hit a person or an automobile along the tracks when it got loose.

[MSchwiebert]

Regarding "home road" coal hoppers - at least among NS & CSX, there's two factors at work. 1. as mentioned in a previous post, why pay someone else to store them when you can save the storage fee by shoving them up some unused mine lead in WV/KY etc? 2. I'd be willing to bet that a sizable part of both roads fleets have or will be taking a one way trip to the scrappers. Most likely the cars that got sidelined first need repairs anyways, and lets face it between the utility owned cars and coal's diminishing usage - CSX and NS are never going to need the numbers of hoppers they have again.

[northstar16]

You make a good point. Agree NS has thousands of coal cars so does CSX and by the end of next year their fleet will begin to diminish as coal is slowly becoming a fuel not being used in a great degree that it was years ago. Hillary doesn't like coal wants to decrease coal as much as possible if she get elected. Still a IF cause anything can still happen in their mud slinging race.

NS had a great past Quarter to many it was a surprise. They have managed to cut corners and keep the shareholders happy. I'm still waiting to hear or read something about the Peavine being sold or scrapped out east. From the NS crew that stops at McDonalds they have been told that the line is not going to be sold off this year or next by NS. They must have some inside scoop. I said to them it appears that the CCET is well balanced with all the empty tankers coming down to Clare every week. They said yes we don't see an end to it but if and when it happens the CCET cannot survive with the limited amount of freight they handle out east. After the harvest of grain there is not much left on the line. Storage is the only way they make money over the winter months.