NS Peavine talk

[heypal6878]

A little off the topic about the Peavine kind of. Years ago when NS used Clare and transported up along the Peavine I have seen over 200 axles of coal cars on the line with up to five engines to make the trip. Coal transport is dwindling in the US and will continue. The Federal Government along with Clinton if she become President will see to slow down coal shipments by rail. The Government has been working on it for years. The last few days there has been articles in the New York Times, USA Today, and today Yahoo News about Coal shipments by rail and end of a era. Coal and Oil are a major player in rail transport. If coal dries up rail will be in one heck of a mess. NS especially then CSX.

Coal will never go away 100% but with current people in office that are tree huggers you will see laws being passed to hurt the rail industry. It is a sad state of affairs for sure.

[MSchwiebert]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ucenergy/20 ... c1a5a77543

This is a good piece on why the election will make little to no difference on eastern coal. In basic terms, for the power plants that will continue to use coal (met coal is a different animal) Powder River Basin coal is so much cheaper to extract that, even with the cost of rail to ship from Wyoming compared to WV or Eastern KY, it's still a cheaper option for the power companies. Of course natural gas is more attractive now than ever as well. I listened to a recent CSX earnings presentation, and they track the price points for natural gas where they view the power companies returning to coal would make sense - and eastern coal is by far higher than Illinois/Indiana & Wyoming coal.

A little off the topic about the Peavine kind of. Years ago when NS used Clare and transported up along the Peavine I have seen over 200 axles of coal cars on the line with up to five engines to make the trip. Coal transport is dwindling in the US and will continue. The Federal Government along with Clinton if she become President will see to slow down coal shipments by rail. The Government has been working on it for years. The last few days there has been articles in the New York Times, USA Today, and today Yahoo News about Coal shipments by rail and end of a era. Coal and Oil are a major player in rail transport. If coal dries up rail will be in one heck of a mess. NS especially then CSX.

Coal will never go away 100% but with current people in office that are tree huggers you will see laws being passed to hurt the rail industry. It is a sad state of affairs for sure.

[northstar16]

Meanwhile on the Peavine I see that the CCET has contracted out to put new railroad ties in the Mt. Orb area. Guess they haven't been replaced in several years and with all the traffic up there in the last few years plus old ties getting bad it was time for replacement

[heypal6878]

From what I have seen on Facebook 200 ties or so were delivered to Mt. Orb. Outside contractor is replacing the ties that are bad up there. There hasn't been any replaced ties in that area since the 90s so over due for some repair. Now since the CCET is hauling longer heaver loads they need to make sure that the ties are good so there will be less risk for a derail. Since the CCET is spending some money to get the track back in shape shows that they are going to continue to operate the Peavine for the another year or so under their contract lease with NS.

[midland sub]

It wasn't because Frontier wanted to put those ties in, they had to. Those are supposed to go in on a few curves where the welded rail is out of gauge and they have to do something. There's no proactive track work with them

[heypal6878]

Midland are you saying Frontier had to make the fix? It appears you don't have much appreciation for Frontier the company that owns the CCET. Since that did kind of just went on and used some of the NS tracks that the CCET wasn't supposed to use I guess I can see why you have a rather bad opinion about the Main company.

[midland sub]

Frontier's niche is making money storing cars. Bare minimum will be spent on track work. Let's be frank without the car storage the line is dead. Hyumataki and Winchester together don't generate enough revenue for anyone to operate the line. It is what it is. The glory days of the line were back in the 1980s and earlier. Maybe somehow, someway an another industry shows up but why would I locate there? There's far better industrial developments all across the state....

[northstar16]

Midland Sub you have made a valid point on the traffic on the Peavine. If it wasn't for storage that the CET is getting this year they would be in a world of hurt. The Ag is the bulk of their traffic for most of the summer into the fall but other than that there is not much going on with business on that line. Hyumataki is nothing much if at all a few cars maybe a full tanker ever other week not worth even making the trip. The storage business is very good to the CET right now and most likely for the next year the way oil shipments are down.

Surly the way things are now NS is in no hurry to scrap the Peavine. Been waiting for some news but see nothing on any of the forum pages.

[Muleskinner]

Frontier's niche is making money storing cars. Bare minimum will be spent on track work. Let's be frank without the car storage the line is dead. Hyumataki and Winchester together don't generate enough revenue for anyone to operate the line. It is what it is. The glory days of the line were back in the 1980s and earlier. Maybe somehow, someway an another industry shows up but why would I locate there? There's far better industrial developments all across the state....

The state of Ohio should just purchase the line and turn it into a state park with a bike/hike trail from Cincinnati to Portsmouth. That's what they did to the Old Pennsylvania RR line along the Little Miami River to Xenia. Its not as attractive as the Little Miami trail but what else are you going do with it?
A small part of it may be used for the I-74 corridor someday. Probably not in our life time.

[heypal6878]

The State of Ohio may purchase the property most likely a smart move on their part for future highway plans but can't see a walking path or bike path up that on the rail site. Not sure what is going on up there as NS is not in any hurry to sell the property or scrap it. For that matter it could sit for ten more years. Railroads can sit on property for years let it rot out before they make any moves on their property have seen it many times including old railroad yards. So hard to tell what is going to happen up there.

[northstar16]

Good news today:

Norfolk Southern Corporation
Law Department
Three Commercial Place
Norfolk, Virginia 23510-9241
Writer's Direct Dial Number
(757) 629-2761
(757) 533-4872 (Fax)
E-mail: garrett.urban@nscorp.com
Via E-Filing
Ms. Cynthia T. Brown
Chief, Section of Administration
Office of Proceedings
Surface Transportation Board
395 E Street, S.W.
Washington, DC 20423
November4, 2016
Garrett D. Urban
Assistant General Attorney
RE: Norfolk Southern Railway Company - Discontinuance of Service Exemption
- In Clermont, Brown and Adams Counties, Ohio, STB Docket No. AB 290
(Sub-No. 370X)
Dear Ms. Brown:
Norfolk Southern Railway Company - Discontinuance of Service Exemption
- In Adams and Scioto Counties, OH, STB Docket No. AB 290 (Sub-No.
373X)
I am writing on behalf of Norfolk Southern Railway Company ("NSR") to inform the
Board that NSR will reactivate service and its common carrier obligation on the following
segments ofline:
1. From milepost CT-62.20 east of Seaman, OH to milepost CT-73.50 at Plum Run, OH.
NSR previously discontinued operations over such segment as part of the line covered by
NSR's petition for exemption filed on September 30, 2014, in Norfolk Southern Railway
Company - Discontinuance of Service Exemption - In Clermont, Brown and Adams
Counties, Ohio, STB Docket No. AB 290 (Sub-No. 370X). The Board granted the
exemption in a decision served January 15, 2015, and the exemption became effective on
February 14, 2015. NSR did not end up effectuating discontinuance of the remainder of
the line covered by that filing, as detailed in NSR's notice filed January 20, 2015.
Operating Subsidiary: Norfolk Southern Railway Company
241965
241966

ENTERED
Office of Proceedings
November 4, 2016
Part of
Public Record
Ms. Cynthia T. Brown
November 4, 2016
Page2
2. From milepost CT-73.50 at Plum Run, OH to milepost CT-78.45 at Mineral Springs, OH.
NSR previously discontinued operations over such segment as part of the line covered by
NSR's notice of exemption filed on September 30, 2014, in Norfolk Southern Railway
Company - Discontinuance of Service Exemption - In Adams and Scioto Counties, OH,
STB Docket No. AB 290 (Sub-No. 373X). The Board served the notice of the exemption
on December 3, 2014, and the exemption became effective on January 2, 2015. NSR will
not resume operations over the remainder of the line covered by that filing, from milepost
CT-78.45 to milepost CT-105. 00 at Vera, Ohio; that portion will remain in discontinued
status.
NSR has reached an agreement with CCET, LLC ("CCET") to amend CCET's existing
lease of contiguous track from NSR 1 to include lease and operation of both segments, extending
approximately 16.25 miles from milepost CT-62.20 east of Seaman, Ohio to Milepost CT-78.45
at Mineral Springs, Ohio. CCET will file separately for authority to lease and operate the line. If
there are any questions about this matter, please contact me directly via the contact information
above.
Sincerely,
Garrett D. Urba

[northstar16]

This is great news today about the Peavine. Here for months it appeared that the CCET was not going to get rights to go up to Plum Road now they can go past to Mineral Springs. So they must have signed a deal with the stone sand company up that way. Also the storage business is good so maybe they want to store more tankers out that way. Either way the crew down at Clare from NS told me that NS has no intention of dumping the rail up east and now I see that it has been activated.

[midland sub]

Hold on. No one ever said they weren't going to be able to lease more of the line east of Seaman. I said months ago they were planning on leasing more of the line out to just east of Plum Run for storage. The end of the lease should be a couple car lengths short of the bridge over Pine Gap Rd. It's for car storage.

[northstar16]

Midland will the CCET need to work on the rails up there since they haven't been used for several years. I would think there maybe some rail slippage from weather related damage over the years.

[heypal6878]

I would think the CET may have looked over the rails before they asked for more trackage rights. I would think that tracks should be fine as long is there are no washouts or small bridges they need to go over.. If not I sure that the CCET will inspect the tracks before they start putting traffic on them.

[TC Man]

I’ve been watching this thread for a long time, and it seems to be like the lyrics of the same song playing over and over. Just my random thoughts. But my question is- do you really call this an operating railroad, or really just a really long storage track? Doesn’t seem that there are any regular shippers (maybe the grain place on occasion), so I’m not sure this is anything more than a couple guys with a few engines and a least on a super long storage track? How often to these cars go back to the NS? I mean eventually, the track will be full and then you just have hundreds of idle freight cars rusting away. Not really what I would call a typical railroad with shippers, receivers, trains running from point to point, track crews, signal crews, sales agents, etc. Just me thoughts (maybe if for no other reason, to generate some discussion other than the same “they’re going to get more track, no they are not, yes they are, maybe stone, no stone, etc). 

[northstar16]

Many years ago the Peavine was a working railroad. Now it isn't a typical working railroad as it only goes up 83 miles or so from Clare Yard. Primary tank car storage on side rails as the storage business is great. The tankers don't sit long when needed they come back out of storage get pushed back to Clare where NS picks them up and takes them back to Sharon Yard. A few days later more show up at Clare and it repeats all over again.

The CET has a good grain business from the Ag that keeps them going and the old Ford Plant in Batavia is now a paper plant and they get a little business there. Maybe they will get a contract with the Stone company up on Plum Road but that is still up in the air I guess. So that is about the extent of the service on that line. As far as train service five days a week they operate somewhere on the line. The CET was running this morning in Newtown. Saturday morning NS was taking some tankers back to Sharon Yard. They were blowing the horn on the NS waking up everyone on the Bluff. The way the wind was blowing it was loud. I was walking my dog down by the tracks and the people in Mariemont just hate that noise.

So getting back the storage business is what keeps the CCET in business. They are doing very well with it and they need more rail for storage. Yet the cars don't sit for more than a month and they go back. So nothing is rusting away on the line.

I was in Glendale today and NS and CSX were running on track one and two all day long. Now that is a working railroad but the Peavine doesn't go to Portsmouth anymore and chances are it never will unless the State of Ohio fixes the line. At this point anything can happen. I never thought the Peavine would be working now after NS pulled out four years ago.

[midland sub]

NS probably won't ever abandon the east end of the line until the bridge at Vera suffers some sort of major visible catastrophic flood damage. If they file to abandon it someone is able to buy the line which NS doesn't care, but then you force the issue with access at Vera which NS flatly doesn't want to deal with a shortline there.

It's only 2 plus years since NS went to Peebles the last time. They actually ran east of Peebles to run around their train so it's not really that much that hasn't seen a train that CCET is leasing.

TC the Peavine is like the old B&O across southern Ohio. There's a handful of people that have a personal connection to it that goes beyond what the rest of us care. So whatever. It's the old problem of what looks good on paper as the shortest route doesn't mean anything because the line is an operational nightmare

[northstar16]

Midland Sub, I confused a few months back you said that NS would abandon the east portion of the Peavine and wanted to sell it off at auction to get a price or they would scrap the rails pull them up. I think I can find that post if I had the time to look it up. Now you say NS will not abandon the east end of the Peavine unless there is some kind of major flood to cause destruction of the Vera bridge which may happen or there could already be a shift under that bridge now since it hasn't been used in years.

Reading the forum pages for several months it appears that NS has no use for the Peavine and that is the main reason they are leasing it out to the short line Frontier. Yet after several months it appears that NS is not going to sell or auction off the east portion of the line. Then again I thought as many others that the line was going to be dead at the end of Peebles yet NS continues to give more trackage rights to the CCET for storage.

This Chris Edwards guy knows something according to what I have read on Facebook. I don't subscribe to Facebook but I do read about the CCET on there and it appears he is in the know when it comes to Frontier which operates the CCET. Mr. Edwards has knows something but is not allowed to share it at this time. If the news was about storage I'm sure he would spill the beans but I think there must be something more that he knows.

Now you also say the NS doesn't want a short line in the Portsmouth yard. Let's say the CCET signs a contract with the Plum Road outfit and they want to haul the material east instead of west. Why wouldn't NS want to get involved in this deal as they to would have a chance to make money. Of course the washouts, tracks, and the Vera bridge would need some work before any of this could happen but it could if the State got involved on a grant.

[Saturnalia]

#MakeThePeavineGreatAgain!!