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Which of the following three lines would possibly make sense in the current rail map today?

1. Panhandle between Columbus and Chicago.
Personally wouldn't see much use for that except routing a few trains off the CSX between Fostoria and Chicago or the NS between Bellevue/Sandusky and Toledo.

2. Cincinnati Northern between Carlisle, OH and Jackson, MI.
Don't see any use.

3. New York Central between Springfield and Indianapolis.
NS might have some use for this as a way to serve Indianapolis and a shortcut from Columbus to Fort Wayne.

What do you guys think?

None make sense which is why they don't exist.

They are gone for a reason you know.

The CN to Jackson, MI would be a moot point anyway, barely enough traffic there to keep the JAIL and NS working. And last I heard Amtrak was/is planning to tear up some of that trackage in the area. On the other hand, I could see the ABDF running it to compete with the I&O/G&W and CSX to some extent. But Dupps barely has enough traffic to warrent that little 5 mile branch there. Amazed they haven't gone to truck.

MagnumForce wrote:None make sense which is why they don't exist.

I am just trying to think outside the box so to speak. Take my Panhandle example, while yes my suggestion would make sense in a vacuum of trying to divert some traffic off of busy tracks for the volume of traffic that could be diverted it is not economically feasible to maintain the track which brings us back to what you said

Huelsy'sTrainBlog wrote:I am just trying to think outside the box so to speak.

But railfans are constantly trying to justify the return of an obsolete part of railroading past. If you want to "think outside the box," start trying to justify what rail lines can be ripped up next.

railohio wrote:start trying to justify what rail lines can be ripped up next.

Perhaps not ripped up, but at least sold to a shortline or regional operation - the NS Ft. Wayne Line between Alliance and Crestline. What little through freight traffic there is could be routed via Cleveland and Bellevue and the local switching (which there actually is quite a bit of) could be handled by a shortline that, arguably, would have better customer service than the large Class I.

Before North Baltimore Yard and the Galatea connection, I was secretly lobbying for the abandonment of the Toledo Branch north of Ridgeway, and using the money to double track the C&O between Marion and Fostoria and to better interconnect Stanley and Walbridge (without regards to the area NIMBYs who have fought such a connection).

railohio wrote:

Huelsy'sTrainBlog wrote:I am just trying to think outside the box so to speak.

But railfans are constantly trying to justify the return of an obsolete part of railroading past. If you want to "think outside the box," start trying to justify what rail lines can be ripped up next.

Good point, Brian.

cbehr91 wrote:

railohio wrote:start trying to justify what rail lines can be ripped up next.

Perhaps not ripped up, but at least sold to a shortline or regional operation - the NS Ft. Wayne Line between Alliance and Crestline. What little through freight traffic there is could be routed via Cleveland and Bellevue and the local switching (which there actually is quite a bit of) could be handled by a shortline that, arguably, would have better customer service than the large Class I.

I strongly suspect nothing will happen to the Ft Wayne line, Canton alone is good for a few hundred cars a day of business thanks to the steel mills. Not to mention its role as a alternative route for derailments and the likes. So while it only sees a handful regular though freights a day, it still has a large amount of relevance.

Huelsy'sTrainBlog wrote:I am just trying to think outside the box so to speak. Take my Panhandle example, while yes my suggestion would make sense in a vacuum of trying to divert some traffic off of busy tracks for the volume of traffic that could be diverted it is not economically feasible to maintain the track which brings us back to what you said

Join the Paper Railroad forum. There's a lot of thinking outside the box there

I could have seen the Toledo Branch north of Ridgeway short-lined early on in the post Conrail split days, as there was enough local business in Kenton, Findlay & BG to support it - but not abandoned. In any event, there wouldn't have been enough through traffic diverted to justify returning the C&O to double track status. Obviously, now the Toledo Branch's future as a CSX property is much more assured now. As an aside, there's still one of those "CSX don't derail our Township" signts standing near Stony Ridge, dating from the days of the proposed connector between the C&O & Stanley yard. As far as I know, the track configuration improvements between Walbridge & Stanley on the former Toledo Terminal have rendered the need for that connection moot.

cbehr91 wrote:

railohio wrote:start trying to justify what rail lines can be ripped up next.

Perhaps not ripped up, but at least sold to a shortline or regional operation - the NS Ft. Wayne Line between Alliance and Crestline. What little through freight traffic there is could be routed via Cleveland and Bellevue and the local switching (which there actually is quite a bit of) could be handled by a shortline that, arguably, would have better customer service than the large Class I.

Before North Baltimore Yard and the Galatea connection, I was secretly lobbying for the abandonment of the Toledo Branch north of Ridgeway, and using the money to double track the C&O between Marion and Fostoria and to better interconnect Stanley and Walbridge (without regards to the area NIMBYs who have fought such a connection).

The Cincinnati Northern and the Indy to Springfield lines both were long on miles but short on traffic bases. The latter should have probably been abandoned back in the 1950s or early '60s instead of living as long as it did. If there really was a pent up demand for another eastern connection out of Indy the PRR main would have survived. The CN saw a brief return to glory with Penn Central using it to bypass the Richmond Branch. Amazing how the Richmond Branch has turned into the busy line it is.

The Chicago-Columbus is an interesting discussion depending on your view point. It was one of many Conrail lines that received a total rehab to only end up abandoned several years later. Look at how the traffic disappeared from the PRR between Pittsburgh and Columbus. The line went from 20 trains a day to nothing in a two year span. Changing traffic patterns and the loss of industry.

From past post off memory, Bradford side was rebuilt in 79-80 rip up 85-86, its down fall was the grade west of Urbana at Rice and the many towers along the line. The Bee Line and Toledo Branch required less personal to operate? although the Toledo Branch/Scotts Lawn was Dark, and still is surprisingly.

Another line was the Xenia line, very few online customers, did not directly service Wright Patt and the Branch Lines out of Springfield and grade east of Dayton Stangly, CR allow ODOt to build a new track around the 675/35 interchange in the mid '80s not sure if a revenue train ever crossed over 675.

Rumor I&O was looking into the segment from SC to Xenia but may have not been enough online customers for them to justify it purchase.

jallenp7 wrote:From past post off memory, Bradford side was rebuilt in 79-80 rip up 85-86, its down fall was the grade west of Urbana at Rice and the many towers along the line. The Bee Line and Toledo Branch required less personal to operate? although the Toledo Branch/Scotts Lawn was Dark, and still is surprisingly.

Crane rode the Bradford side in January of '81 and supposedly it at that time the decision was made to abandon it. With nearly all the through traffic traveling west of Columbus going to Indy or St. Louis and already utilizing the Central side west of Union City, at the time it made sense to abandon the Panhandle and build the southwest connector at Ridgeway. I'm not 100% certain the circumstances of Columbus to Chicago traffic drying up, but there was a bad recession at the time and the railroads were about to be deregulated. I'm sure both of those had something to do with it.

There actually was quite a bit of CTC already on the Bradford side. The only proper tower was Bradford and there was a permanently temporary block station at "Hagenbaugh" -- the crossovers east of Urbana. IIRC the Columbus dispatcher controlled CPs Rice, West Rice, Meekers and State Line. There was also CTC between Union City and at least Marion. Meanwhile the Bee Line still had several towers (Marion, Ridgeway, Morgan, Ansonia, Gridley) open into the 80s and later.

Ridgeway to Stanley was CTC since at least the 60s. Yes, the Scottslawn is/was paper, but with radios it's easy enough for a far off dispatcher issue blocks over the radio.

jallenp7 wrote:Another line was the Xenia line, very few online customers, did not directly service Wright Patt and the Branch Lines out of Springfield and grade east of Dayton Stangly, CR allow ODOt to build a new track around the 675/35 interchange in the mid '80s not sure if a revenue train ever crossed over 675.

This was primarily the passenger main 'back in the day'. There was an old-time union agreement that restricted the number of freights that could operate on this line. This was lifted when Penn Central downgraded the Bradford to New Paris line via Greenville and began running more freights via Xenia and Dayton. The Xenia Secondary as it was called under Conrail was not abandoned until 1988. Locals ran on it and I've seen pictures of a grain train at South Charleston from January of 1986.

I had talked with guys who worked the Bradford Side and they tall me the stories when Crane took the ride, one guy was a Dispatcher at the time and also new one of the tower operators, did not realize the CTC had been upgraded that much, I did fine plans in the old office building in Springfield on Warder St of the signal system on the Bradford side, I wonder what happen to them when they took down the building?

Did the Bradfrod side also have cab signal technology?

jallenp7 wrote:Did the Bradfrod side also have cab signal technology?

Yes it did.

Conrail ran to South Charleston to the Landmark grain elevator until 1993 when the I&O took over with access from the DT&I. They had a line of old bad order cars shoved west of town to the actual South Chuck CP. There's a short segment of Conrail pulling a loaded grain train from Landmark in one of the DT&I/GTW dvds. Maybe Vol 3 or 4.

MSchwiebert wrote:As an aside, there's still one of those "CSX don't derail our Township" signts standing near Stony Ridge, dating from the days of the proposed connector between the C&O & Stanley yard.

On Genoa Road.


q636 genoa road by Brent Kneebush, on Flickr

Interesting Maintenance and Track Chart for Conrail in 1993. Especially when you look at what lines Conrail still had at the time before selling them off to Port Authorities and short lines. Lot's of current I&O and other G&W lines plus the Indy to Louisville line before it was sold to the L&I.

http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rail ... 201993.pdf

jallenp7 wrote:From past post off memory, Bradford side was rebuilt in 79-80 rip up 85-86, its down fall was the grade west of Urbana at Rice and the many towers along the line.

Its downfall is that it duplicated the same general routing as the Big Four, once the Ridgeway SW connection was in place.

jallenp7 wrote:Another line was the Xenia line, very few online customers, did not directly service Wright Patt and the Branch Lines out of Springfield and grade east of Dayton Stangly, CR allow ODOt to build a new track around the 675/35 interchange in the mid '80s not sure if a revenue train ever crossed over 675.

As Cory mentioned, the Xenia side saw traffic until around 1988. That bridge over Interstate 675 built circa 1983-1984 - is the sturdiest bike path bridge known to man!