Fort Wayne passenger service floated, again

[nathansixchime]

Annnd here's why the driving for the younger generation is down compared to the rest of us...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/0 ... 90870.html

Once they cut the cord - things will change...

The article you cite makes absolutely no mention of car ownership as being related to living at home. And what's weirder is I know plenty of recent grads who live at home and...still have a car.

For something a little better related:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Ge ... on-to-cars

America's recovery from the Great Recession has been touch-and-go, hampered largely by economic troubles in Europe (though China has begun slipping, too). As a result, young people -- even college grads -- are having a tough time getting their financial footing, which puts a damper on their ability to buy big-ticket items like automobiles.

As more people move to urban areas, car ownership becomes increasingly unnecessary. After all, why would anyone shell out for an automobile -- and a place to park it -- when there's decent mass transit available, as there is in many cities?

Meanwhile...

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-a ... town/6406/

Nationwide, demand for walkable, urban living is on the rise—in a way that it wasn't in past decades, when high urban crime rates kept professionals in the suburbs. Leinberger believes demand will continue to rise as millennials and Gen-Yers focus on paying off student loans rather buying cars and houses, and baby boomers downsize to apartments

To wrangle this somewhat back on topic:

http://suncoastnews.com/the-green-colum ... a-20130712

A regional authority of the Federal Railroad Administration released its business plan in late June, one of 150 U.S. high-speed rail projects in some stage of development going on today.

The Northeast Indiana Passenger Rail Association is laying the groundwork for an 11-city passenger rail corridor between Columbus, Ohio, and Chicago through Fort Wayne and Warsaw, Ind.

...

Over the 30-year life of the project, benefits of over $6 billion are expected, with a positive benefit-cost ratio of $1.70 in direct benefits for each dollar invested.

The analysis indicates private operation of the system would be possible without annual government subsidies.

Regional economic benefits over the life of the project are forecast to include creation of 26,800 new full-time jobs, $700 million per year in additional household income and $2.6 billion in joint development opportunities for the corridor communities.

Columbus, with its 1.9 million metropolitan area population, is the largest city in the U.S. not served by any type of passenger rail.

Fort Wayne, midway between Columbus and Chicago, represents the largest city in Indiana without any form of passenger rail service.

[MSchwiebert]

Point I was trying to make is that the Millenials an Gen-Y's can talk all they want about wanting live "downtown" - when they're back in mom n dad's house. However, once they finally do spread their wings and start families, they'll find out that living in the urban core isn't what it's cracked up to be, especially in regards to schools, recreational facilities etc.

- Personal disclaimier, I live within walking distance of downtown Perrysburg, which has fantastic schools and things for families to do. I work in downtown Toledo, and while there are some apartments/lofts there and more than a few good resturants, downtown is still a ghost town if the Mudhens aren't playing. That and Toledo Public Schools are atrocious....

[nathansixchime]

Point I was trying to make is that the Millenials an Gen-Y's can talk all they want about wanting live "downtown" - when they're back in mom n dad's house. However, once they finally do spread their wings and start families, they'll find out that living in the urban core isn't what it's cracked up to be

As an Ohioan, did you catch the story about Cleveland up above? Which Gen Y'ers are talking about the urban core while still living in their parents basements? Perhaps those are not the types cities seek to attract...I don't know a single 20-something where this contradiction exists, though.

As far as Toledo, the next comparison would be Cleveland as illustrated in the aforementioned piece. I've friends who work in Toledo as well and they share your sentiments to a degree, but happen to live in redeveloped lofts and warehouses a short distance from the Amtrak station...

[MagnumForce]

Urban Hipsters are the exception, not the norm.

[CSX_CO]

The article you cite makes absolutely no mention of car ownership as being related to living at home. And what's weirder is I know plenty of recent grads who live at home and...still have a car.

For something a little better related:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Ge ... on-to-cars

America's recovery from the Great Recession has been touch-and-go, hampered largely by economic troubles in Europe (though China has begun slipping, too). As a result, young people -- even college grads -- are having a tough time getting their financial footing, which puts a damper on their ability to buy big-ticket items like automobiles.

As more people move to urban areas, car ownership becomes increasingly unnecessary. After all, why would anyone shell out for an automobile -- and a place to park it -- when there's decent mass transit available, as there is in many cities?

When I moved to Indy, I looked into living 'downtown' because I thought it would be 'fun'. When I saw the prices for rent down there, I quickly realized that I couldn't afford it. That was working full time with the railroad, which isn't exactly a 'low paying' occupation. That, and no real grocery stores, etc. For $300 LESS per month for a loft downtown, I was able to get a 2 bedroom apartment 10 miles west of downtown that had my own washer and dryer, didn't have to pay for parking, etc. I can still visit downtown in 30 minutes or less, but at the faction of the cost of living.

While you quote Chicago, Boston, New York, etc as having 'strong urban cores' they are also probably 3 to 4 times larger than the largest city on the route (Columbus). You aren't going to get the population density in downtown Fort Wayne as you could in those metropolis you mention. Even downtown Indy is dying. Circle Center has only one of its 'anchor' stores occupied. The former Nordstrom end is vacant, and has been for nearly 3 years. A lot of the office space downtown is for lease. If it weren't for the Anthem Campus just south of downtown, it would be extremely empty. Now, the NE side towards Hamilton County continues to experience growth, with businesses, retail, etc all relocating to that 'side' of town.

Practice Safe CSX

[justalurker66]

Indiana PAY for train service? What are they smoking over in Ohio? They're balking at supporting the Hoosier State ... Indiana isn't going to buy Ohio a train.

You do realize that the state of Indiana put down $200,000 under the previous governor for the Indiana portion of the Chicago-Michigan line, right?

In what year?

The Michigan Line work in Indiana project I was referring to was $71.4 million in federal funds ... 100% federal money.

Can you accurately give a year and a project that you are alleging Governor Daniels gave $200k for? And then explain why you raise $200k as if it was anywhere near the impact level of Indiana buying Ohio a train?

[justalurker66]

I attended a meeting yesterday that was shy of four hours long that involved the mayors of every city to be served (save for two) along the route in Indiana and Ohio.

Present at the meeting were Congressional and state leadership representatives, as well as state and federal transportation staff and community directors and their staffs from the regions and cities involved with this effort. The support and engagement for this project was unanimous. The primary funding phase is already underway.

Unfortunately that and a slick presentation will get Federal funds awarded. Fortunately the federal government is not giving out 100% funds any more ... so those mayors are going to have to give more than lip service to supporting the plan. They are going to have to convince the states to complete the funding for their full size fantasy rail line.

It is a shame that the line will never be self built or self supporting. If the proponents could promise that not one dime of the costs would ever come from public coffers it might be worth supporting. But needing federal and state funds to start the project, followed by more federal and state funds to complete the project, followed by more federal and state funds to make up all the losses on the project.

There was a reason why Chicago to Fort Wayne and east was abandoned. Have people forgotten the past?

[justalurker66]

Cities everywhere are realizing they need to embrace these trends because the culture from established, connected urban cores like Chicago, Boston, or New York are setting the table. You face difficulty in recruiting talent to cities that aren't well connected or have a high quality of life and you can't retain talent in cities that lack connectivity, quality of life, and other pillars of economic development, like passenger rail.

There are other benefits to living away from cities that are so dependent on public transportation that one might as well not have a car. The larger cities end up with three classes of people ... those who survive on public transit who could not afford a car (whether they want one or not) ... those who think a car free lifestyle is hip and cool who put up with the poor on their public transit but still rent cars or trucks as needed ... and those who continue to live a car lifestyle despite living in a transit rich environment.

For all of the transit in Chicago there is a reason why there are huge and numerous parking structures in the Loop.

Perhaps you are one of those hip people who think not having a car is cool. I'm not.

[railroadchoad]

The reason the passenger service through Fort Wayne had little, if anything, to do with the patronage that the trains on the former PRR were or were not getting. The fact of the matter was that places like Ft. Wayne and Warsaw had very substantial passenger counts. Had Conrail not announced its intention of downgrading the signals on the line and making Amtrak pay the upkeep on the line to keep it at those standards, Fort Wayne would probably still have passenger service. Do you really think Amtrak would rather be serving Waterloo instead of Fort Wayne?

Let us not also forget the "Calumet" passenger service that was maintained from the PRR days up through the late '80s out to Valpo. That was axed not due to lack of passengers but due to the State of Indiana being unwilling to continue to continue to underwrite some operating costs, from what I recall.

[CSX_CO]

Do you really think Amtrak would rather be serving Waterloo instead of Fort Wayne?

No, but I bet they would rather be servicing Elkhart, S. Bend (Notre Dame if they still stop in S. Bend), Toledo, Sandusky, and Cleveland, over Plymouth, Warsaw, Lima, Bucyrus, Crestline, et al.

Outside of Fort Wayne, name another metro area that has the population of Toledo and Cleveland, between Chicago and Pittsburgh on the Fort Wayne Line.

Don't forget AMTRAK USED to run a bus from Fort Wayne to Waterloo (and back) to connect with the trains up there. People didn't use it enough to justify it being kept on. I suppose you could argue who is going to take a 45 minute bus ride to catch a train, but then who would drive 30 to 45 minutes into downtown Fort Wayne to catch a train?

Practice Safe CSX

[justalurker66]

Do you really think Amtrak would rather be serving Waterloo instead of Fort Wayne?

It isn't Fort Wayne vs Waterloo or Fort Wayne vs Garrett. It is Fort Wayne vs South Bend and Elkhart.

Let us not also forget the "Calumet" passenger service that was maintained from the PRR days up through the late '80s out to Valpo. That was axed not due to lack of passengers but due to the State of Indiana being unwilling to continue to continue to underwrite some operating costs, from what I recall.

I wish that was still around. Amtrak wanted $2.5 million to continue service, NICTD wanted $1.5 million to take over service. The state didn't want to pay - and on May 3rd, 1991 the Calumet made the final run. It was not carrying enough passengers to be profitable ... it needed a subsidy regardless of who was running it (even when Conrail ran it from 1976 to 1979).

Will Fort Wayne service be profitable? I think not. Will the subsidy required to build it and keep it running provide enough benefit to society to spend my tax dollars on it? I think not.

There was a comment earlier in the thread:

Discussion between us rail buffs is very good, but it's really not up to us to decide whether or not this train happens. It will be up to the general public of the affecting states and the politicians.

It is up to us ... through our elected officials. I vote ... and have been voting longer than some of the posters on this forum have been alive. And I intend to continue to vote and let my representatives know where I want my tax dollars spent.

[justalurker66]

No, but I bet they would rather be servicing Elkhart, S. Bend (Notre Dame if they still stop in S. Bend), Toledo, Sandusky, and Cleveland, over Plymouth, Warsaw, Lima, Bucyrus, Crestline, et al.

Exactly.

Don't forget AMTRAK USED to run a bus from Fort Wayne to Waterloo (and back) to connect with the trains up there. People didn't use it enough to justify it being kept on. I suppose you could argue who is going to take a 45 minute bus ride to catch a train, but then who would drive 30 to 45 minutes into downtown Fort Wayne to catch a train?

24,064 used Waterloo in 2012 ... but that statistic does not say if the passengers came from Fort Wayne or north of Waterloo. Elkhart (18,141 2012 passengers) pulls from Michigan. South Bend (24,799 2012 passengers) also pulls from Michigan despite nearby Niles (19,915 2012 passengers) having a station on the Michigan line.

All of those stations have parking ... South Bend is served by public transit but local public transit ends long before the evening train times in Elkhart and is not existent in Waterloo. People drive to the train (or take a cab).

[JStryker722]

The only advantage for Michigan passengers have in getting on at South Bend or Elkhart and more importantly Toledo is taking the eastbound Amtrak trains so that Michigan passengers don't have to go Chicago before going east. This is why there was a Michigan service train that made a right hand turn in Detroit and went down to Toledo instead of up to Pontiac until 1995.

[railohio]

This is why there was a Michigan service train that made a right hand turn in Detroit and went down to Toledo instead of up to Pontiac until 1995.

And why there's a bus between Michigan and Toledo now.

[Ypsi]

This is why there was a Michigan service train that made a right hand turn in Detroit and went down to Toledo instead of up to Pontiac until 1995.

When they still had one train going down to Toledo to connect with the Lakey Shore and the Cap they didn't run up to PNT. I can't remember when they started the PNT leg, but it was after the TOL train was replaced by a bus. having a train take an hour or two to go somewhere where I can drive in 30-40 minutes isn't exactly something I would want to do (ARB to TOL)

[CSX_CO]

One other thing to bear in mind, and this comes from CEO Mike Ward, is that CSX isn't really keen on 'hosting' high speed rail on their network. I believe Mr Ward told the State of New York, and AMTRAK, that if they wanted 100mph service on the Empire Cooridor in New York, they would need to build their own ROW to accommodate the trains. CSX didn't want 100 mph trains 'mingling' with freights, nor the hassle of trying to run (Dispatch) a network around those trains.

Seeing that the Indiana High Speed Network is relying solely on CSX owned ROW's, I have a feeling CSX would require any service to have its own dedicated ROW off any CSX owned tracks. Probably not a major issue when it comes to the former PRR ROW across Indiana, but I have a feeling that it would get very expensive to lay parallel tracks along the Scottslawn Secondary...

Practice Safe CSX

[conrailman75]

The only thing I see CSX wanting from this group to use the old PRR ROW is for them to pay up the money to buy it outright. I haven't looked at this study to see how they plan to get from Columbus up to Lima but I don't see CSX or NS allowing them to use their tracks to get there, which probably means a brand new right of way carved out of Ohio farmland.

[Typhoon]

The only thing I see CSX wanting from this group to use the old PRR ROW is for them to pay up the money to buy it outright.

Why? CSX is sitting on a perfect situation. They have a line that can be used in the future if traffic ever increases enough to warrent it, and it is not costing them a cent to hold onto it.

[Saturnalia]

The only thing I see CSX wanting from this group to use the old PRR ROW is for them to pay up the money to buy it outright.

Why? CSX is sitting on a perfect situation. They have a line that can be used in the future if traffic ever increases enough to warrent it, and it is not costing them a cent to hold onto it.

I wonder if there are any utilities under it too paying fees for using the land...sounds like free money if that is the case...

[Standard Railfan]

IMHO:

Ten dollar per gallon gasoline will change a lot of the dynamics of passenger railroad service in the US.

Ten dollar per gallon fuel oil makes cross-ocean shipping of inexpensive consumer goods impractical.

The push for "clean" energy will collapse the coal industry in this country as sure as the strikes of the 40's & 50's did.

The bottom line is in the not to distant future passenger rail service will become a large proportion of rail revenue that it is today.