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The support mast is up (turned 90 degrees) at CR 13 for the new Westbound signals entering CP 417! (No cantilever yet.)

Looking south from Sunnyside Rd - the current intermediates at 417 with supports for the new CP 417 signals in the background.

CP 412:

The new westbound signal for CP 412 ... still not in service but some of the heads have been removed.
The left picture was taken in November 2014, the right picture February 7th, 2015.

Oops?

I wondered why the new westbound signal was getting more heads than the old westbound signal. Typically the third head is needed to show slower routes. The new eastbound signal is a two head per track signal replacing a three head per track signal (unless NS comes along and adds more heads to the not in service signal).

I am not sure when the third heads were removed ... probably within the last few weeks. I also noted that the lower heads were removed ... which means climbing individual ladders to get to the top heads and wasting the lower level walkway ... unless new heads are installed at the lower level with less than three lamps.

Because the old westbound signal coming off the Marion branch was a dwarf, only makes sense to now put it up on the high mast plus will provide more aspects too.

esprrfan wrote:Because the old westbound signal coming off the Marion branch was a dwarf, only makes sense to now put it up on the high mast plus will provide more aspects too.

The new signal is more than the dwarf ... but it is less than it was in November. That was the point that I was making. That NS seems to be installing signals and then changing their mind.

justalurker66 wrote:

esprrfan wrote:Because the old westbound signal coming off the Marion branch was a dwarf, only makes sense to now put it up on the high mast plus will provide more aspects too.

The new signal is more than the dwarf ... but it is less than it was in November. That was the point that I was making. That NS seems to be installing signals and then changing their mind.

I'm not well-versed in NS's signal rules...does it take three heads to get a limited indication? Perhaps they were or weren't planning on Limited there, and changed their mind, or need to correct a design flaw with the signals. Just an educated theory

The current signals (pre upgrade) are three heads eastbound, two heads westbound with a dwarf on the entrance from the Marion Line.

The future signals as originally erected were two heads eastbound, three heads westbound on all three tracks. Basically the opposite of the pre-upgrade on the main tracks. With the head removal the future signals are now two heads in both directions.

The third head adds "Slow Approach", "Slow Clear" and "Medium Approach Medium". The other aspects can be done with two or three heads. (Limited speeds are added by flashing one of the lights.) I have seen "Slow Approach" and "Slow Clear" used for trains routed to Marion. The new two headed eastbounds remove slow aspects (other than Approach Slow). Perhaps NS decided to bump up the speed on the crossovers to the extended siding?

BTW: The current dwarf can be "Stop", "Restricting" or "Slow Clear" (or as I like to call it, slow until clear). Which is good for the slow speed connection to the main line.

So limited is flashing lights, but does it require three heads or can they be done with two?

Other option here is, you need a slow signal onto the Marion, but once you're off, you can take a medium signal but you're still stuck with 10 mph until your train takes the curve.

I'm not quite sure how the new signals are being setup, but that could also be the case?

MQT3001 wrote:So limited is flashing lights, but does it require three heads or can they be done with two?

Limited signals do not require three heads.

MQT3001 wrote:Other option here is, you need a slow signal onto the Marion, but once you're off, you can take a medium signal but you're still stuck with 10 mph until your train takes the curve.

At the moment a Slow Clear is needed as a train taking the interlocking at Medium speed to get on to the Marion Branch would have trouble making it to the curve. The current turnout is down and away in pitch. Hopefully that will all be leveled out in the future and Medium speed will be allowed through any turnout in the plant.

I'm just speculating here, but maybe they're setting it up with medium speed signals and just posting whatever speed limit on the curve? Obviously I don't know a whole lot, but if the curve is out of the control point, wouldn't it really not be under that speed guidance? I know on CSX at least the signal speeds only work for passing turnouts, crossovers, and the like.

Perhaps somebody more well versed could help this out?

MQT3001 wrote:I'm just speculating here, but maybe they're setting it up with medium speed signals and just posting whatever speed limit on the curve? Obviously I don't know a whole lot, but if the curve is out of the control point, wouldn't it really not be under that speed guidance? I know on CSX at least the signal speeds only work for passing turnouts, crossovers, and the like.

For the future? Medium Clear (read as Medium until Clear if it is easier to understand the meaning of Medium Clear) controls just the interlocking and the train speed until it is clear of the interlocking. When the end of the train leaves the interlocking the "medium" part of Medium Clear no longer applies. Just like today's south bound trains that take a Slow Clear signal ... slow until clear.

Beyond the interlocking check the timetable for a speed limit for the curve, track through town, etc.

I understand getting rid of the "slow" signals eastbound ... they will be no longer needed once the interlocking is upgraded. I thought it was strange that three heads were being installed westbound ... why add slow? Apparently someone "caught the error" and got the heads removed.

Oh these are the Westbound signals...yeah I guess what you said makes sense!

Just to be clear, NS is not changing the operating rules for this stretch of line with the installation of new signals, right? They'll still be using the Conrail standard NORAC?

Here's what the setup looked like several years ago, before any construction:



It may have just been an error that those heads were installed, as Lurker said, or, since so much of modern signal equipment is assembled elsewhere and then just trucked to the site for installation, the wrong cantilever was dropped at this location, and rather swap them out, they just removed the heads where not needed.

GP30M4216 wrote:It may have just been an error that those heads were installed, as Lurker said, or, since so much of modern signal equipment is assembled elsewhere and then just trucked to the site for installation, the wrong cantilever was dropped at this location, and rather swap them out, they just removed the heads where not needed.

The cantilever was assembled on site from a kit delivered to the site. Here is the kit after delivery last October:

The vertical post installed is for the track 1 signals. The other posts are to the left laying in the bottom of the arm.
The ladders and baskets for the highest signals are in the center and to the right.

This particular signal was assembled on the ground then lifted to the top of the mast.
Some of the others were assembled in the air with the signals added after the cantilever was added to the mast.

This week: Below zero temperatures a couple of days. Schools closed. But through the near whiteouts signal crews were using a crane to place buildings.

Kudos!

This particular signal was assembled on the ground then lifted to the top of the mast.
Some of the others were assembled in the air with the signals added after the cantilever was added to the mast.

I didn't realize these were being assembled on-site, some of them in-situ over the rails. I've seen flatbeds with pre-assembled gantry portions with heads already in place elsewhere. Keep us informed, I appreciate the updates!

GP30M4216 wrote:

This particular signal was assembled on the ground then lifted to the top of the mast.
Some of the others were assembled in the air with the signals added after the cantilever was added to the mast.

I didn't realize these were being assembled on-site, some of them in-situ over the rails. I've seen flatbeds with pre-assembled gantry portions with heads already in place elsewhere. Keep us informed, I appreciate the updates!

Yeah, often I've seen them come like this:

Godfrey Ave signal replacements. 6-4-14 by MQT3001, on Flickr

Picked off the truck and left there...

That's usually how they come. Sometimes the heads will be installed after the structure is unloaded.

justalurker66 wrote:
BTW: The current dwarf can be "Stop", "Restricting" or "Slow Clear" (or as I like to call it, slow until clear). Which is good for the slow speed connection to the main line.

This tells me as it stands now the turnout there isn't a limited speed switch, which on a high signal would necessitate three heads for the slow clear.

cbehr91 wrote:

justalurker66 wrote:
BTW: The current dwarf can be "Stop", "Restricting" or "Slow Clear" (or as I like to call it, slow until clear). Which is good for the slow speed connection to the main line.

This tells me as it stands now the turnout there isn't a limited speed switch, which on a high signal would necessitate three heads for the slow clear.

Currently CP 412 is three heads eastbound (slow needed for the turnout to the southbound Marion Branch) and two heads westbound mains (no slow). The current dwarf is, as noted, only on the entrance from the Marion Branch.