Fort Wayne to fund high speed rail study

[NSSD70ACe]

The farm fields next to the Waterloo station so prove your point...

Look at the city limits. By definition everything within those boundaries is protected by Waterloo Police, Fire, etc. Since they are protected by the same agencies that means that it is all "in the city" and that would place the station right next to downtown Waterloo. Feel free to interpret it any way you like, but my claim is backed by definition and proof.

[MagnumForce]

And to really get your goat the Waterloo station is really the Fort Wayne station... talk about Outskirts.

Learn the definition of outskirts, it means out at the edges and away from the center, I don;t give two hoots in hell if it is within city limits. The entirety of Marion County is with the Indianapolis City Limits so I guess A train stopping just north of greenwood somewhere or just west of New Palestine would be Honky Dory

[NSSD70ACe]

And to really get your goat the Waterloo station is really the Fort Wayne station... talk about Outskirts.

Learn the definition of outskirts, it means out at the edges and away from the center, I don;t give two hoots in hell if it is within city limits. The entirety of Marion County is with the Indianapolis City Limits so I guess A train stopping just north of greenwood somewhere or just west of New Palestine would be Honky Dory

Still, the fact remains that it's less than a minute from the most densely populated area of Waterloo. It'd be a bit farther out, wouldn't you think?

And why wouldn't it be named Waterloo-Ft. Wayne if it was the station for Ft. Wayne?

[CSX_CO]

Still, the fact remains that it's less than a minute from the most densely populated area of Waterloo. It'd be a bit farther out, wouldn't you think?

Considering you can drive through Waterloo (even obeying the speed limits) on US 6 in about 3 minutes, that's not saying much...

Practice Safe CSX

[MagnumForce]

Waterloo Station was essentially the replacement for Amtrak in Fort Wayne. Well After it was the replacement for Garrett...

If you want to take a train to the second most populous city in Indiana you have to take the train to a location 40 miles away and that is the absolute epitome of what this entire argument is about.

Remember there is another Station 20 Minutes East of Waterloo in Bryan and another one an hour north in Battle Creek. It is pretty obvious why the stop is in Waterloo.

[justalurker66]

He was referring to 3C anyway which had the dumbest plan ever with the line ending 20ish miles from downtown Cinci.

So he's attacking AMTRAK by discussing a line that was federally funded but the state refused to build? That is like like kicking my dog because your dog peed on the carpet!

The farm fields next to the Waterloo station so prove your point...

The station is in the center of town. Center Street is at the east end of the platform. That is not a farm field next to Waterloo's station.

[justalurker66]

If you want to take a train to the second most populous city in Indiana you have to take the train to a location 40 miles away and that is the absolute epitome of what this entire argument is about.

So are you in favor of the Fort Wayne HSR or against it?

[MagnumForce]

I am for a pragmatic approach for any type of corridor service but think that HSR is a waste of money when a train that can average 60 MPH will fit the bill nicely and you have to work something more in than Fort Wayne. Chicago to Fort Wayne can easily be served by busses far more cost effectively.

[justalurker66]

I am for a pragmatic approach for any type of corridor service but think that HSR is a waste of money when a train that can average 60 MPH will fit the bill nicely and you have to work something more in than Fort Wayne. Chicago to Fort Wayne can easily be served by busses far more cost effectively.

Then you're in luck since "HSR" isn't really super duper high speed in this context. The max 110 MPH Fort Wayne HSR is expected to average 75-80 MPH. I hope that is not too fast for you.

And yes, I am against it. The money can be better spent elsewhere.

[CSX_CO]

The station is in the center of town. Center Street is at the east end of the platform. That is not a farm field next to Waterloo's station.

Really? That is the 'center' of town? Center street may be at the 'east' end of the platform, but 'west' street would be at the 'west' end of the platform. FYI, until the expansion in the last 10 years, it was fields around the 'west' edge of town, and 'west' street. They've piece meal annexed parcels of land in the last few years to reach I-69 and the new industrial tax base. AFAIK, the Waterloo Station has always been located closer to the former junction of the FW&J with NYC, then to the business district of town.

IMHO Definitely not in the center of town at all. Located where the FW&J used to cross on the EDGE of town. The historical depot was moved east to its present location, but the 'boarding' area has been on the 'edge' of town since Waterloo became a stop when the Broadway left the former PRR.

Practice Safe CSX

[Saturnalia]

Fort Wayne will never have HSR to Chicago, or anywhere else, without that being a part of a MAJOR corridor from say NYC to Chicago. That is pie in the sky itself. I'm on my second slice, you guys go at it

[justalurker66]

The station is in the center of town. Center Street is at the east end of the platform. That is not a farm field next to Waterloo's station.

Really? That is the 'center' of town? Center street may be at the 'east' end of the platform, but 'west' street would be at the 'west' end of the platform. FYI, until the expansion in the last 10 years, it was fields around the 'west' edge of town, and 'west' street.

Perhaps you should have had this argument 10 years ago.

Where would you mark the center of Waterloo? A quarter mile down the tracks? A five minute walk away? Do we need to get out a tape measure?

[MSchwiebert]

Waterloo & Garrett were added for 2 reasons: 1. To be the "Fort Wayne" Stops for the Capitol Limited & The Broadway. (they even moved the Fort Wayne Destination for the bus service up to Coldwater Road from the Baker Street station). 2. To maintain the crew change locations on the new routings without running afoul of the Union Agreements in place at the time (the inbound crews for Waterloo used to layover at a house on the south side of the tracks near the "station" and the Garrett crew base was in a building across Randolph Street from the "station"). This is why when the "Three Rivers" ran, the train still stopped in Garrett, even though passengers could not train/detrain there.

Also keep in mind that Amtrak fought tooth and nail against estabishing Bryan as a station stop for the Lake Shore, and likewise was against Defiance as the Lima replacement when the Broadway was moved. (Fostoria as the Lima replacement was a typical Amtrak Piss Poor Choice as well - but Amtrak and logic are contradictory things anyways....)

[CSX_CO]

Perhaps you should have had this argument 10 years ago.

Where would you mark the center of Waterloo? A quarter mile down the tracks? A five minute walk away? Do we need to get out a tape measure?

You were the one implying that AMTRAK strategically places their stations at the population centers, and not on the 'edges' of towns. When you deal with 'absolutes' someone is going to find an exception to that, just as you originally found exception to the OP's challenge.

Besides, as has been repeatedly pointed out, Waterloo is the de factor Fort Wayne stop. AMTRAK even went so far as to offer bus service from Fort Wayne to Waterloo to connect with its trains. It has long since dropped that service. If forty miles isn't an 'outlying' point to board a train in your eyes, then you're absolutely correct, AMTRAK doesn't place depots on the edges of towns...

Oh, and so far as moving to a 'lounge' car, I'm glad your last trip had one. One of mine was on the Hoosier State and then the Cardinal. Train was full, so we had to sit in one of the seats with the 'post' both ways. Had a cafe car on the return, but that was reserved for people eating, and then you were asked to return to your seat so others could sit down to eat. Just two coaches on the Hoosier State, so not much moving around to be had on that. Superliners have been gone for well over 10 years from the Cardinal, so no sightseer lounge on that one anymore either. I won't even begin to try and describe my trip from hell on AMTRAK in the great dome. 6 hrs to get between Hammond (train was *almost* 3 hrs late into Hammond at that) and CP Custer outside of Battle Creek. Luckily the on board crew changed trains at CP Custer so we could change trains with them and head back west that day.

Practice Safe CSX

[cbehr91]

Also keep in mind that Amtrak fought tooth and nail against estabishing Bryan as a station stop for the Lake Shore, and likewise was against Defiance as the Lima replacement when the Broadway was moved. (Fostoria as the Lima replacement was a typical Amtrak Piss Poor Choice as well - but Amtrak and logic are contradictory things anyways....)

I actually thought Fostoria was touted as a Toledo stop, but Lima is equally lolable. Alliance as the Akron-Canton stop, Crestline as the Mansfield stop (even though the train went right through Mansfield), the list goes on. Also, wasn't Nappanee touted as the South Bend stop?

[justalurker66]

You were the one implying that AMTRAK strategically places their stations at the population centers, and not on the 'edges' of towns.

No, I was correcting the incorrect statements of someone else. An allegedly respected poster who hit the ground (went off the rails) in his rebuke of Amtrak. You're building a straw man argument now. I did not announce any such strategy.

Oh, and so far as moving to a 'lounge' car, I'm glad your last trip had one. One of mine was on the Hoosier State and then the Cardinal. Train was full, so we had to sit in one of the seats with the 'post' both ways.

Poor baby! Hopefully Capitol Corridor will give you a better ride starting in October.

Anyone can obsess over the problems ... and pretend that the worst case scenario is the one that applies to absolutely every trip on every train. Yes, I agree that there are problems with absolutes - but the problem is coming from the haters. One might as well say every train is rerouted through Detroit with people bussed to the intermediate stops that were missed by the reroute. It happened on more than one trip ... that must be Amtrak's standard operating procedure.

Haters gonna hate. Is it too late for a rational discussion? Or is attacking spelling and grammar next? Would Hitler do a better job of running trains than Amtrak? (It seems to be the next logical step in conversation the way this one is going.)

[justalurker66]

Getting back to Fort Wayne "HSR" ...

The issue of train route and station locations are important when planning service - and when planning a new service, not just maintaining leftovers from a bygone era, one has a chance to get it right.

The biggest issue with station location is that the stations have to be next to the railroad tracks. One instantly eliminates many potentially better locations for a train station by requiring that the station be placed on a train line. Sometimes planners get lucky and the track happen to pass an excellent place for a station and they can get the land to build ... but train stations are not airports or bus terminals where one can pick any vacant land of sufficient size and (with appropriate permission and money) build.

The biggest issue with track location is that planners seem to have an 19th century railroad map - if the line did not exist in the 19th or early 20th century it can't be a railroad. Minor adjustments might be possible at great expense ... but the planners always seem to be wanting to resurrect some almost forgotten road instead of building a line where it is needed. Why can't we have a line from Fort Wayne to Chicago through South Bend? Is it because some 19th century planner didn't put a line on the map and no one builds a new line where there wasn't one before?

If "serving" Fort Wayne by having a station 40 miles away in Waterloo is wrong then proposing to "serve" South Bend and Elkhart with a station in Plymouth is wrong. It seems the planners and supporters are eager to inflict a handicap on South Bend instead of building a route that serves both major metropolitan areas. It is too easy to follow 19th century lines ... and no one seems to be able to draw a new line.

[j_c1987]

Man this discussion is getting a bit ugly. We had to bring Hitler into the mix. You know The Niles, MI depot isn't exactly in the middle of town. It isn't Amtraks fault either. A lot of the stations that I know of were in use well before Amtrak came around. Even if some of the stations appear to be on the outskirts of town, just maybe thirty or fifty years ago they weren't. Things change. Now I think the Royal Oak station is nothing but a platform. I was a young lad when I lived in that area, so I might be wrong.

[MagnumForce]

Every trip might not be worse case scenario but the chances of a bad trip are far higher than that of a good trip.

[Notch 8]

This topic is not worth arguing and getting upset about, The only think that is upsetting about the topic is that it is a waste of money for the amount of people that actually ride the train. In a hurry ? I'm getting on a jet ! and besides the Pennsylvania Railroad was running High Speed to Chicago 80 years ago !