Question about hump yards.

[GAP]

I recently saw a Grand Elk train from Elkhart which included a string of 37 hoppers of stone. My question is would each of these cars have gone over the hump individually? Or would a string that size be handled as one long cut by a regular switch engine not over the hump?

[Y@]

It doesn't really matter what type of car it is regarding on what cuts go where. It's about the cars destinations. For example, if you have a train consisting of 10 cars bound for Chicago, 10 for Elkhart, and 10 for Toledo, they will be humped in cuts according to where they are going, not what type of car they are.

And as for the 37 stone cars, my guess is they were not humped. That train most likely originated at a stone company or a flat yard.

[AARR]

And as for the 37 stone cars, my guess is they were not humped. That train most likely originated at a stone company or a flat yard.

So they would not be humped at Hellkart? The rest of GDLK's consist was probably humped though.

[Mr. Tops]

No, they would not be humped. A cut that size would be flat switched, set out probably even before the rest of the train was humped.

[CSX_CO]

No, they would not be humped. A cut that size would be flat switched, set out probably even before the rest of the train was humped.

And as for the 37 stone cars, my guess is they were not humped. That train most likely originated at a stone company or a flat yard.

Wow, you guys obviously never worked in a hump yard.

Why would I take an hour to flat switch 37 cars when I can have the computer make a hump list in seconds, and hump off 37 cars in about 15 minutes? If they are all going to the same destination, I leave a 'long' track with enough room and fire away. Or at the very least they all get shoved over together and the other end gets a quick 37 car pull towards their shift count. That takes time, not to mention having to pull the cut back out of the bowl to finish humping, so I'd just pull the pins. In my yard, and *most* hump yards, the easiest way to the D yard is over the hill.

As far as the cars, it depends on the hump system in place. Avon's hump processor is set up to handle no more than 4 car cuts. I've had groups of 5 empties come to the top, and the computer wants 1 group of 4 and a single. I'll let 5 go because it never fails, that 5th car will stall out because it caught up to the group of 4. You can do more than 5 or 6, but it doesn't necessarily 'like' it. Loads are usually cut off 2 at a time. Louisville as the same hump processor, and they don't have the restrictions on cut sizes. They get 8 cars together, the go as 8. They get 20 autoracks all going to the same place, they put 20 over at once. That's just the way they set their system up. I've heard the system actually likes the larger cuts, but Avon's processor is set up for smaller cuts for whatever reason.

Not sure the system Elkhart has in place, so I can't comment on how they do things as far as cut sizes. Avon and Elkhart were pretty much 'sister' yards, being built at nearly the same time and as 'state of the art' 1960's facilities. I'm sure they've upgraded their hump processor, but to what I don't know.

Prior to the computer controlling the retarders, Avon would hump any sized cuts with manual retarder operators. Mixed blessing on going to a computer. Probably less lading damage, but you get more bypassed couplers because you have to break your cuts up into smaller chunks. That block of 37 would have to go over in cuts of 2, greatly increasing the likely hood of *some* damage somewhere.

As far as flat switching in a hump yard, you're going to get some nasty comments from your hump crews, and a phone call from a Terminal Trainmaster wondering what you're doing.

Practice Safe CSX

[GAP]

Thanks, Russell, for the words of experience.

[Mr. Tops]

Well, granted they were already in a block. If they weren't in a block, then yes obviously they would get humped. But a solid block of 37 cars is not going over the hump...that's what I was getting at...

[CSX_CO]

Well, granted they were already in a block. If they weren't in a block, then yes obviously they would get humped. But a solid block of 37 cars is not going over the hump...that's what I was getting at...

What first hand experience do you have to make that assertion?

Having been there, I beg to differ. I've seen blocks of 30-60 cars come over the hump, both as a YM, a puller crew, and as a tower operator. Sometimes a puller/trim job grabs them right away, or they sit for a few hours. Unless the 'other end' is ready for them, into the class yard they go via the hump processor. Swing when the original track fills up. Shoot, I was in an investigation today for 3 cars going on the ground of a 25 car cut of Detroit Salt cars. Other end wasn't going to pull them anytime soon, so over the hill they went, or 'flat switch them' to the other side. I wasn't going to lose 30 to 45 minutes of humping in a production yard to shove 25 cars over the hill. I'm going to get ny numbers, other YM can answer for why they didn't pull cars. Came to bite me in the butt, and a lesson learned on what the computer can/can't handle. Judgement call on the part of the YM, but I can guarantee if it involves flat switching in a 'production' yard, its going over the hill. Yardmasters don't like answering silly questions as to why they aren't humping.

Elkhart is a production yard, it probably went over the hill in one form or another.

Practice Safe CSX

[Mr. Tops]

Well, I'm sure there are exceptions to everything. So you are saying it does happen, but cars go on the ground when it does...or is that just when you are the yardmaster?

[Hogger1225]

Last time I operated into Elkhart, (many, many years ago) their system was set up to handle 2 car cuts. I believe they could over-ride that number but it would involve stopping the computer or something like that.

[CSX_CO]

Well, I'm sure there are exceptions to everything. So you are saying it does happen, but cars go on the ground when it does...or is that just when you are the yardmaster?

Happens several times a week to be honest. Sometimes human error, sometimes computer error, sometimes car error. But, when you're putting 1800 cars into, and out of, a class yard a day, the odds are bound to catch up with you.

Should also add that 600 is the goal per shift. Conrail used to put 800 over the hump ("If you don't get 800, don't bother coming back tomorrow!") on a shift, and they didn't stop the hump for anything. I've heard stories of cars on top of each other, and the YM getting chewed out because they stopped the hump. Different era.

Practice Safe CSX

[esprrfan]

Well I think I'll chime in a bit here having been "forced" to watch endless hours of humping at Elkhart. What I've seen with minerals in big blocks is that they are shoved (not free rolled) over the hump into whichever track then the humper pulls back up and over, car counts ya know! Seen this also with bigger blocks of covered hoppers too. Elkhart doesn't seem to do a WHOLE lot of flat switching.