CN and Indiana Rail Road to build intermodal terminal

[atrainguy60]

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/int ... channel=48

CN and the Indiana Rail Road are going to build an intermodal terminal in Indianapolis.

[Y@]

Very interesting...

[AARR]

I have read Railway Age longer than Trains Magazine. Railway Age is more for the railroad industry while Trains is more for railfans IMO.

[CSX_CO]

We'll see how this pans out. CN is going to have to run this stuff past Homewood to get it to the interchange at Newton, IL (outside of Effingham, IL). I could see CN just telling the shipper "We'll ramp your shipment at Homewood to avoid a double switching between Newton and Effingham, and Effingham and Homewood.

Hope it works out for INRD, though their marketing people do have a history of 'all business is good business' when that isn't the case. If it is successful, you can bet Big Brother (CSX) will be watching too.

Practice Safe CSX

[penn central]

This kinda of reminds me of the Inter-modal terminal in Remington Ind, On the old TP&W only in a much better place. Back then it was TP&W-ATSF or later it was TP&W and BNSF, Only this time it will be INRD-CN. I read in some old ICG books that they tried inter-modal to on the same route back in the 1970's but gave up on it. I think it's neat there trying it again.

[AARR]

I'm starting to see little by little short lines and regionals getting involved in short movement intermodal. Everything I have read indicates intermodal has to go xxx (500, 1000 ???) miles to be profitable.

Anyone with some insights as to how INRD, IORY, etc. will make money on intermodal less than 100-200 miles?

Edit: I am aware that they switch intermodal yards for Class 1's and get a switching fee. Is it similiar to this?

[railohio]

It's about 155 miles for the Indiana Rail Road between Indianapolis and Newton.

[Standard Railfan]

I have read Railway Age longer than Trains Magazine. Railway Age is more for the railroad industry while Trains is more for railfans IMO.

FWIW: During my time contracting to railroads in the Upper Midwest, I would normally see copies of both magazines in RR offices.

I agree that historically your supposition was true. I think Trains has built a lot of credibility in the RR industry in the past 20 years.

[CSX_CO]

It's about 155 miles for the Indiana Rail Road between Indianapolis and Newton.

And it takes 3 days to go that distance on their normal freight trains. Day 1 Senate Ave to Hiawatha. Day 2 Hiawatha to Palestine, Late day 2 into Day 3 Palestine to Newton. Then the CN has to come get the cars, and drag them to the main at Effingham, handle north to Homewood, to then go to either coast. Unless they're going to do dedicated run through trains. Granted this is 'doublestack' freight, so it doesn't mean 'hot', but still, I don't see the CN with all their streamlining wanting to handle these cars as much as they are.

Practice Safe CSX

[CSX_CO]

I'm starting to see little by little short lines and regionals getting involved in short movement intermodal. Everything I have read indicates intermodal has to go xxx (500, 1000 ???) miles to be profitable.

Anyone with some insights as to how INRD, IORY, etc. will make money on intermodal less than 100-200 miles?

Edit: I am aware that they switch intermodal yards for Class 1's and get a switching fee. Is it similiar to this?

They'll get a 'ramp fee' for loading/unloading the container. I've heard its $100 to ramp a trailer and $100 to unramp it. Might just be the $100 to put it on a well. Usually the loading is done by an outside contractor. For CSX in Avon its Parsec, other places its TTX, etc. Not sure if INRD will contract the loading out or what. INRD will get part of the rate division for moving the car their 155 miles. CN will get the rest to the end destination. Probably an interchange fee, perhaps Chicago Terminal Switching fee, etc thrown in on the route too.

Practice Safe CSX

[GreatLakesRailfan]

This kinda of reminds me of the Inter-modal terminal in Remington Ind, On the old TP&W only in a much better place. Back then it was TP&W-ATSF or later it was TP&W and BNSF, Only this time it will be INRD-CN. I read in some old ICG books that they tried inter-modal to on the same route back in the 1970's but gave up on it. I think it's neat there trying it again.

Hoosier Lift. It's still there, but apparently GE has a half of a four year lease left on the property. Last time I was down there, they were using it for windmill unloading and storage.

Despite the added time to move trains down to Indy from Chicagoland, the fact that the ramp will be in the Indy metro area, rather than halfway to Chicago might help it to succeed more than the Hoosier Lift location did. Also, I've seen mention of shipments from the Gulf to the Indy ramp as an additional potential source of traffic, once the Panama Canal expansion is complete.

[CSX_CO]

Hoosier Lift. It's still there, but apparently GE has a half of a four year lease left on the property. Last time I was down there, they were using it for windmill unloading and storage.

Despite the added time to move trains down to Indy from Chicagoland, the fact that the ramp will be in the Indy metro area, rather than halfway to Chicago might help it to succeed more than the Hoosier Lift location did. Also, I've seen mention of shipments from the Gulf to the Indy ramp as an additional potential source of traffic, once the Panama Canal expansion is complete.

Last time I was there "Hoosier Lift" had been gutted. Container crane was laying in pieces on the ground. Hoosier Lift was primarly for SIA parts traffic out of the Pacific Northwest. Even SIA realized it was just as easy to un-ramp those containers in Chicago and rubber tire them to the SIA plant. BNSF picked up more of the haul, and didn't have to do anything 'special' to the cars at Peoria to interchange them.

Again, be interesting to see what CSX does in response. They already have an established ramp in Indy, and do quite a bit of loading for EB destinations. WB traffic is pretty small, but there is some traffic from St. Louis that gets ramped off at Indy. Some competition might finally give CSX a reason to expand.

Practice Safe CSX

[penn central]

This kinda of reminds me of the Inter-modal terminal in Remington Ind, On the old TP&W only in a much better place. Back then it was TP&W-ATSF or later it was TP&W and BNSF, Only this time it will be INRD-CN. I read in some old ICG books that they tried inter-modal to on the same route back in the 1970's but gave up on it. I think it's neat there trying it again.

Hoosier Lift. It's still there, but apparently GE has a half of a four year lease left on the property. Last time I was down there, they were using it for windmill unloading and storage.

Despite the added time to move trains down to Indy from Chicagoland, the fact that the ramp will be in the Indy metro area, rather than halfway to Chicago might help it to succeed more than the Hoosier Lift location did. Also, I've seen mention of shipments from the Gulf to the Indy ramp as an additional potential source of traffic, once the Panama Canal expansion is complete.

Just for clarification when i said ICG ran on that route i meant the one INRD has and not the TPW i may have worded it wrong. ICG had a intermodal train that went from Memphis Tenn, to Indinapolis Ind. And Visa-Versa.

[penn central]

Hoosier Lift. It's still there, but apparently GE has a half of a four year lease left on the property. Last time I was down there, they were using it for windmill unloading and storage.

Despite the added time to move trains down to Indy from Chicagoland, the fact that the ramp will be in the Indy metro area, rather than halfway to Chicago might help it to succeed more than the Hoosier Lift location did. Also, I've seen mention of shipments from the Gulf to the Indy ramp as an additional potential source of traffic, once the Panama Canal expansion is complete.

Last time I was there "Hoosier Lift" had been gutted. Container crane was laying in pieces on the ground. Hoosier Lift was primarly for SIA parts traffic out of the Pacific Northwest. Even SIA realized it was just as easy to un-ramp those containers in Chicago and rubber tire them to the SIA plant. BNSF picked up more of the haul, and didn't have to do anything 'special' to the cars at Peoria to interchange them.

Again, be interesting to see what CSX does in response. They already have an established ramp in Indy, and do quite a bit of loading for EB destinations. WB traffic is pretty small, but there is some traffic from St. Louis that gets ramped off at Indy. Some competition might finally give CSX a reason to expand.

Practice Safe CSX

Well i dug out my history books i have a couple on the TP&W, Hoosier Lift opened in November of 1983 and closed in October of 2003, It says they only had that contract for 10 years from 1989 to 1999, And the other times they survived on Misc Intermodal business. By the way for people who don't know SIA means Subaru-Isuzu's plant in Lafayette Ind, Thanks for your help CSX_CO. It does say that Hoosier Lift never lived up to it's expectations and pretty much was starved, The ramps in Chicago where just more convenient like you said.

[AARR]

Intersting the Hoosier Lift didn't work out because the entire TP&W never lived up to its intent as a way around Chicago.

[chriiis]

In my pessimism, i am reminded of the failed Wheeling intermodal yard in Navarre,Oh called Neomodal and the lose of the IC pig trains to St.Louis (i can't recall when they stopped running, i'd hazard a guess it wass shortly before the CN takeover). While there have been shifts in the way container traffic is market and questions of geography, i believe that the bottom line is how aggressively each road markets their intermodal traffic.

The traffic to Neomodal never materialized, and the Wheeling was left holding the bag. The asphalt is still there, now a lumber transload IIRC. CN is not investing any money into the INRD ramp, and i doubt is offering any commitments of traffic.

Honestly, i'm surprised that in Chicagoland, CN is flipping Markham into intermodal only and not building a megaramp toward Will County in Joliet (to ape UP's Global 4 or BNSF's Logistics Park) because CN's intermodal traffic base is incredibly biased toward Asian imports.

If i had to peg a regional to build an intermodal ramp, it would be the CFW&E near Crestline as proxy for the western roads, not unlike a mirror of the IAIS's sevice to Omaha. The northeast Ohio market is larger than that which would be served by either Hoosierlift or Senate Ave. Scheinder's ramp at Marion and the less-than-400 mile hauls of Columbus/Cleveland to Chicago that both CSX and NS run suggest it's viable, not to mention that fact that there are still trucks on the interstates.

The elephant in the room is that the western roads (including CP and CN) pay scant attention to anything shorter than a coast/Mexico to Mississippi haul.

Look at service matrices for NS, they've made the most of the shorter hauls, and is actively persuing new markets. Take their Cresent Corridor (the Northeast to Memphis), for example: NS built new ramps and invested in their plant. CSX could easily start running pair of North Baltimore/Memphis trains to compete for that traffic, the trucks are certainly pounding I-81.

To riff off of CSX_CO, CSX could easily also have the Q106 work Indianapolis, and offer service to anywhere that runs out of North Baltimore, say Atlanta and Jacksonville and south. CSX only offers service to New Jersey and Massachuesets on it's own system.

Going west out of Indy, CSX only offers service with UP, and (not including west coast or Mexico) only to Dallas and Salt Lake City, but not Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Phoenix, Denver, (Omaha,) or Kansas City. Hell, UP doesn't even ramps in Oklahoma City, Minneapolis or Little Rock. i thought that was the point of the UMAX containers, to smooth the interline connections and make those "shorter" hauls a viable service.

[bctrainfan]

CN does have that unique access from Vancouver and Prince Rupert that they are expecting to grow as other west coast ports are at or over capacity. CN is adding yard capacity at International Falls border crossing for this reason already as it is somewhat of a bottleneck currently and they project volume to increase greatly over the next few years. An Indy connection might be a good way to circumvent already crowded Chicago rail traffic and facilities. There is also an expectation that intermodal traffic will increase from Gulf coast ports as well, as ships avoid jammed East coast facilities or transit the enlarged Panama Canal. CN from Mobile, Gulfport, or New Orleans up to Indy via INRD might eventually make good sense. Certainly we are getting more and more of our "stuff" from overseas and it all comes via containers. There will be a practical limit to how much Chicago can deal with, both for rail and road congestion.

[CSX_CO]

An Indy connection might be a good way to circumvent already crowded Chicago rail traffic and facilities. There is also an expectation that intermodal traffic will increase from Gulf coast ports as well, as ships avoid jammed East coast facilities or transit the enlarged Panama Canal. CN from Mobile, Gulfport, or New Orleans up to Indy via INRD might eventually make good sense.

If you read the press release, southern ports aren't mentioned. Just ports on each of the coasts. Show me how CN will route this traffic to 'circumvent' Chicago? It can't. Its probably going to be handled at Homewood, set off at Effingham, and then put with the regular INRD interchange at Newton. But...its Asian import/export, so speed isn't what they're paying for.


Practice Safe CSX

[chriiis]

Wouldn't that same sense make CN want to return to hauling conatiners to St.Louis?

The metro St.Louis region has a bit more than 2.8 million people in it, making it a third larger than the metro Indy region of 2.1 million people. And CN already owns and controls the their tracks to the city, the ramp has been long empty though.

[Sparks1]

If I might add, I think CN wants the haulage to the Gulf and to its Canadian ports. I think CN is really planning on growth at its Gulf ports and that's where the Indy ramp comes into play from what I have read. As has already been noted, CN does a bunch of business at Vancouver.

As far as St. Louis is concerned, CN is mostly a small player today. The old IC intermodal facility was in Venice, IL. I think IC ran a single pair (NB and SB) of intermodals between Memphis, TN and Venice, IL through the late 1990's. Those SB trains tended to be small. I can't recall seeing a NB. I remember seeing one SB come through Carbondale, IL in the late 1990's with a single GP-11 pulling about 8-10 cars and the last car was an autorack! That was a unique train.

UP already has the lion's share of containers between St. Louis and points south like Memphis. BNSF also has a connection to Memphis via its old Frisco. I doubt that CN will go back to St. Louis for intermodal in the foreseeable future, too much competition.

Cheers,
Joe