Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Story Here:
http://www.wdrb.com/story/23436460/amtr ... r-facility
MERRILLVILLE, Ind. (AP) -- Amtrak officials say Indiana's decision on whether to help fund a service that runs between Indianapolis and Chicago four days a week between Indianapolis could impact a repair facility south of Indianapolis.

Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari tells the Posti-Tribune that without the Hoosier State Line service, it would be difficult for the repair facility in Beech Grove to make competitive bids. That's because the trains passing through Indianapolis deliver work to the facility.

Amtrak officials say the Beech Grove facility repairs 150 to 175 locomotives and passenger coaches a year. It employs more than 550 workers, with an annual budget of more than $100 million and annual payroll of $30 million.

State transportation officials met last week with local officials to discuss options.
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Jackson Michigan could be a potential spot for a *brand new* repair facility. It seems that they are creating a maintence "base" per say in Jackson for the eastern half of the michgan line, and if they wanted to they could probably create a "new" beech grove up here. Also since Amtrak (and the state) already own the line line they could easily run ferry trains as needed between Jackson and Chicago (or PNT to put equiptment on trains or slap equiptment on the rear of a wolverine passing through Jackson)

They could also move all major maintence to Bare Delware, but they probably do not have the capticity for all of the work) and would also be much farther for most of the desiel engines to go.

It will be interesting to see what happens if they do pull the beech grove facilities from Indiana.
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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YpsiAmtrakBoy wrote:Jackson Michigan could be a potential spot for a *brand new* repair facility. It seems that they are creating a maintence "base" per say in Jackson for the eastern half of the michgan line, and if they wanted to they could probably create a "new" beech grove up here. Also since Amtrak (and the state) already own the line line they could easily run ferry trains as needed between Jackson and Chicago (or PNT to put equiptment on trains or slap equiptment on the rear of a wolverine passing through Jackson)

They could also move all major maintence to Bare Delware, but they probably do not have the capticity for all of the work) and would also be much farther for most of the desiel engines to go.

It will be interesting to see what happens if they do pull the beech grove facilities from Indiana.
There is also the issue of the Superliners going out to Bear. If they do move it'll be somewhere in the Chicago-corridor area. Chicago it's self is the most likely candidate, but somewhere in Michigan would be nice.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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IF superliners are upped to 110, then Michigan may become a possible new home, but at the moment, probably not going to happen if at least for the 100mph restriction on Supers.
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Ahh almost forgot. They would need a "ferry train" for the supers (and other things like npcus) or maybe a "Hoosier state" type train out of Jackson running 3-4 days a week. Also would need some more ITCS engines as well. Maybe if they moved it to Michigan a ferry train from Jackson would work for it. But that's just if. Would be pretty near though :)
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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YpsiAmtrakBoy wrote:Jackson Michigan could be a potential spot for a *brand new* repair facility.
Yeah, no. Plenty of underutilized facilities in Chicago area to repair cars. Also close to a lot of suppliers for parts, services, etc. When you're trying to run high speed passenger service, the last thing you want is a slow 'hospital' train out there gumming up the works. If you're willing to run a 'hospital' train, then unless politics dictate, then just keep the facility you have, with the experienced work force you already have.

This is a 'ploy' by AMTRAK to try and force Indiana to pony up the money to keep the Hoosier State on. No reason why AMTRAK can't run hospital trains between Indy and Chicago. They just want the state of Indiana to pay for them to run their bad cars between Chicago and Indy. AFAIK, Cardinal doesn't usually carry the hospital cars as they don't want it 'switching' at Indy. Precedent was set in the past, when AMTRAK ran hospital trains when the Hoosier State was cut off in the 90's. They're just threatening to take their football and go home, and seeing if the state will play hardball.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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I've got to agree with CSX CO. It sounds like Amtrak is trying to hold the state of Indiana hostage. You fund this train or we'll take these jobs away. They want the state to pay for their ferry moves is what this amounts to.
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Wow, it would seem that Amtrak has taken a page from the private industry playbook. :mrgreen:

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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If only taking a page from the private industry play book get them to break even for once lol
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Plenty of contractors out there that could handle the work, too.
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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railohio wrote:Plenty of contractors out there that could handle the work, too.
Yea, there's the idea. Watch it crash and burn with cut-rate, slop jobs just like what happens with every other public entity that goes with privatization. Indiana Toll Road should be the front and center example. Plenty of others that exemplify the fact as well. But you can't tell the text book-type anything.. they know it all already.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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NSSD60M wrote:
railohio wrote:Plenty of contractors out there that could handle the work, too.
Yea, there's the idea. Watch it crash and burn with cut-rate, slop jobs just like what happens with every other public entity that goes with privatization. Indiana Toll Road should be the front and center example. Plenty of others that exemplify the fact as well. But you can't tell the text book-type anything.. they know it all already.
You have no clue what you are talking about. Before the Toll Road was leased, I drove 10 miles out of my to 94 to avoid it. There was no electronic collection, which meant long lings at the toll both, and the pavement was in bad shape. Since the state leased it out, we now have an epass program, which means the only backups that happen at the boths are when people are too stupid to read which lanes to go in when paying cash. The entire length of my drive has been resurfaced in the last three years, the bridges over Indiana 149 is currently being replaced, and the I80/I94 interchange bridges are being replaced at the end of the year. Don't let the facts get in the way of your government welfare rant.....
http://reason.org/files/indiana_toll_road_lease.pdf

"The ITR lease has been a major boon for the state
of Indiana overall, leaving it in a far stronger position
than it otherwise would have been."

http://www.governing.com/topics/mgmt/in ... ation.html

"By most accounts, the project has been a windfall for Indiana, with little downside to taxpayers."

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Cross posting this from another site to show how AMTRAK has 'done it in the past'.
IndyHog wrote: Amtrak took over Beech Grove in Apr 1975. The Hoosier State came on in 1980 sometime. Between those two dates Conrail ran hospital trains between Beech Grove and Chicago for Amtrak. I caught one as a brakeman in the late 70's sometime. Have to dig out my time books to come up with the symbol.
The train we operated out of Beech Grove was passenger equipment only. We took it over the P&E to Danville Il and handed it over to another crew who took it to Chicago via the Egyptian Line.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Typhoon wrote:Since the state leased it out, we now have an epass program, which means the only backups that happen at the boths are when people are too stupid to read which lanes to go in when paying cash.
The last time I was on it I was trying to get off at I-65 eastbound. There was ONE lane open for all vehicles and a line that backed up onto the roadway itself. As I inched closer to the gate I realized how screwed up the system was that night. The system was charging the maximum fare possible (for a multi-axle semi truck) for nearly every vehicle. You could see the fare pop up on the display. And there were no lanes open for I-zoom customers.

The system would not accept my I-zoom ... it showed on the displays as "invalid" ... but it accepted it enough to charge me the 2 axle vehicle rate instead of assuming that the axles of the cars riding my bumper were part of a multi-trailer rig.

An isolated incident? Probably. I hope it never happened again. But one thing is for sure ... it will never happen again to me. I'm done with the toll road.

I have I-94 from Chicago to Michigan City, and US-20/IN-2 from Michigan City to South Bend. And while (as required by the lease) many improvements were made on the barrier system portion of the road the rural part of the Indiana Toll Road is not enough better than US-20 to pay for.

US-20 was expanded east around the south side of South Bend, Mishawaka, Osceola and Elkhart connecting to the now truncated US-33 which is four lanes to Goshen. US-20 is currently being extended as a four lane road to SR-15. The network of "free" roads (not pay per use) diminishes the value of the toll road.

Meanwhile cash fares for the casual traveler have shot up (electronic fares were frozen by the lease agreement). It is ridiculously expensive to travel without pre-registration / pre-purchase of an I-zoom tag. It just isn't worth the money and the hassle.

(Add to the litany that I once got a warning ticket for driving 72 in a 70 ... nevermind the Illinois plate cars that had been passing me. I'd rather avoid speed traps. The toll road having their own ISP district means there are a group of officers with nothing to do but patrol that road.)

Your experience may vary ... but even with an I-zoom, the toll road is not all sunshine and roses.


But I digress ...

As far as the threat to lose Beech Grove it is not the same thing. It is not INDOT turning over railcar maintenance to a foreign consortium.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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justalurker66 wrote: As far as the threat to lose Beech Grove it is not the same thing. It is not INDOT turning over railcar maintenance to a foreign consortium.
Perhaps. But...a "foreign consortium" (investors) are only going to purchase an asset if they think they can make money with the purchase. Do that one of two ways. Turn around and resell it at a higher price, or run it and turn a profit. The whole point of the Toll Road lease was that the State was "Losing Money" running the Toll Road. Um...ok. If that's the case, the state either found a huge sucker, or that the BS associated with running a "Government entity" means its nigh impossible to turn a profit. If a "Private Company" can take that asset and turn a profit with it, then there really is no reason the State couldn't either. Seeing as we are several years removed from the lease of the Toll Road, it seems that the new operators must be turning a profit on the asset. Again, why couldn't the State do the same then?

If AMTRAK says they lose money running trains to be repaired by their own forces at Beech Grove, then it is a similar situation if they 'contract out' the 'upkeep of the fleet'. No reason AMTRAK can't keep costs down if a 'private business' can do the repairs and turn a profit on them. No reason why AMTRAK can't still run a 'hospital train' to the Grove 'as needed' to ferry equipment needing repairs. They just want to tack on a few 'hot' coaches, and get the state to pay for something they're probably going to have to do anyway...

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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CSX_CO wrote:If a "Private Company" can take that asset and turn a profit with it, then there really is no reason the State couldn't either. Seeing as we are several years removed from the lease of the Toll Road, it seems that the new operators must be turning a profit on the asset. Again, why couldn't the State do the same then?
The biggest difference between government operation and private operation is keeping the profit with the operation. It is so easy for politicians to see a source of income intended for one purpose as free money for another purpose.

The toll road should be free. That is what the people of Indiana were promised when it was built. But politicians looking for money for other projects decided to continue to collect tolls. And since they were impatient and wanted the money NOW instead of spread out over the years they leased the road to a private company willing to front the state with money they could use for other projects.

It was profitable under government operation.

CSX_CO wrote:No reason why AMTRAK can't still run a 'hospital train' to the Grove 'as needed' to ferry equipment needing repairs. They just want to tack on a few 'hot' coaches, and get the state to pay for something they're probably going to have to do anyway...
If you can get someone to pay you for something you would have done for free it is a good deal. If AMTRAK ends up running hospital trains at least they can run them on their schedules (with the approval of CSX and other roads) and it will no longer affect the on time performance of the passenger trains.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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justalurker66 wrote: The biggest difference between government operation and private operation is keeping the profit with the operation. It is so easy for politicians to see a source of income intended for one purpose as free money for another purpose.

The toll road should be free. That is what the people of Indiana were promised when it was built. But politicians looking for money for other projects decided to continue to collect tolls. And since they were impatient and wanted the money NOW instead of spread out over the years they leased the road to a private company willing to front the state with money they could use for other projects.

It was profitable under government operation.
Actually, the reason the State leased the Toll Road was because they said it WASN'T being profitable. It was costing money to run. That's why the lease to a private company, who has then turned around and apparently is making a profit running it. There again, if private business can turn a profit on something, why can't the State and then use that additional money for other projects?

Personally, I'm all for Toll Roads. Pay to play.

AMTRAK is using the threat of pulling jobs out of the Grove to try and keep a 'hospital' train on. No reason why AMTRAK couldn't keep cars going to the Grove even without the 'hot' coaches. They've done it in the past. This is politics pure and simple.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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CSX_CO wrote:There again, if private business can turn a profit on something, why can't the State and then use that additional money for other projects?
Because Government doesn't need too.

Private capital exists to make people money, so it is profit or bust.
CSX_CO wrote:This is politics pure and simple.
No need to say more.
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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

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Typhoon wrote:
NSSD60M wrote:
railohio wrote:Plenty of contractors out there that could handle the work, too.
Yea, there's the idea. Watch it crash and burn with cut-rate, slop jobs just like what happens with every other public entity that goes with privatization. Indiana Toll Road should be the front and center example. Plenty of others that exemplify the fact as well. But you can't tell the text book-type anything.. they know it all already.
You have no clue what you are talking about. Before the Toll Road was leased, I drove 10 miles out of my to 94 to avoid it. There was no electronic collection, which meant long lings at the toll both, and the pavement was in bad shape. Since the state leased it out, we now have an epass program, which means the only backups that happen at the boths are when people are too stupid to read which lanes to go in when paying cash. The entire length of my drive has been resurfaced in the last three years, the bridges over Indiana 149 is currently being replaced, and the I80/I94 interchange bridges are being replaced at the end of the year. Don't let the facts get in the way of your government welfare rant.....
http://reason.org/files/indiana_toll_road_lease.pdf

"The ITR lease has been a major boon for the state
of Indiana overall, leaving it in a far stronger position
than it otherwise would have been."

http://www.governing.com/topics/mgmt/in ... ation.html

"By most accounts, the project has been a windfall for Indiana, with little downside to taxpayers."
The hook was well baited I see...
And you do have a clue? That 3rd shift may be finally taking it's toll (no pun intended) eh? You know, there're studies out there showing it can be exhausting to one's judgement and coherency over time. Effects some worse than others, obviously.
The toll road is in better shape now under privatization? Ah, no.. Take a look at what used to be mowed shoulders and right-of-way to the fenceline..now it's beyond mowing in many places, thanks to neglect and the thickening of vegetation, and nothing but a haven for wildlife waiting to dash out across the lanes. The toll booth attendants have been spread so thin, that at many of the rural exits you're hardpressed to find one on duty, and lines backed up because of the slow operation of the cash lanes. No, not everyone is a dumba$$ and way down on the totem pole of intelligence when compared to yourself. Those cash lanes are a pain in the butt to use and constantly malfunction. Hell, the I-zoom doesn't work half the time, as Justalurker also reinforced. I've got it in my company vehicle, and use the cash lanes in my personal vehicle, if God-forbid, I need to use the toll road when I'm off-duty, so I can certainly speak from experience with both examples
Resurfacing? Sure, in places. Although in many places, it's simply spot resurfacing to cover the cracks, ruts, and deepened holes thanks to the neglect than has escalated since the privatization. Stopped to take a leak at any of the plazas? What filthy and vile conditions those facilities have turned into. I specifically remember Toll Road custodians that were working at each plaza, and based on my observations, where there around the clock.
Now, since the workforce has been cut, slashed, and hacked, every aspect has gone down hill.
I guess it's real easy to make some references from materials that are clearly biased toward the point. Just keep paying your taxes, and live with it. I think we see who's on the rant here. That chip on your shoulder for public service and entities is really nipping away at reality isn't it...

While I brought up that example of the toll road, and I see others have elaborated (and thanks to those who haven't allowed hollow principles to turn into a rant), my point remains that I certainly don't wish to see any sort of privatization of heavy repair to the fleet or engines. Safety of the travelling public, as well as Amtrak employees such as myself depend upon the dedicated individuals down there in BG. They do great keeping an antiquated fleet in the best shape possible. Let it be privatized, and slop jobs are what you'll get. Profit put first and foremost and let everything else go by the wayside. The proof is right out there in the open. Sure, cut out expenditures, slash manpower and drain it dry for resources, and you'll have a profit. Oh, but wait, when was a highway ever intended to be for-profit anyway? Probably why the State wasn't making a profit while operating it in the first place.

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Re: Amtrak threatens to move their Heavy Repair facility

Unread post by CSX_CO »

MQT3001 wrote:
CSX_CO wrote:There again, if private business can turn a profit on something, why can't the State and then use that additional money for other projects?
Because Government doesn't need too.

Private capital exists to make people money, so it is profit or bust.
It was a hypothetical question MQT. Go back to making your maps and let the adults talk.

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