UP Global 4 Thread

[redside20]

Will CN get in on this transborder program to Canada?

[EJ&ESDM809]

I could see CN getting in on this new yard, with their Chicago-Joliet Line and the EJ&E both coming quite close to to site. CN could access the yard from both lines if they wanted to get in on it. No matter what, with the increase in traffic on the UP and BNSF transcon lines, this project is good news for railroading in Joliet. One thing is for sure, they aren't wasting time building the yard.

[EJ&ESDM809]

I've been by Global 4 several times recently, and it i amazing how quickly they are moving along with the yard. UP is wasting NO time building the yard, that's for sure! Each week there have been several ballast and rail trains running down the old GM&O from St. Louis to Global 4. Here's a shot I got at G4 about two weeks ago. http://www.flickr.com/photos/24084206@N08/3913317751/

There are several more tracks put down since that photo was taken too. Note the ties are steel ties!

[Mr. Tops]

This article is similar to the one I posted on September 3rd, but this one mentions moving more freight through San Antonio to Yard Center...

http://sanantonio.bizjournals.com/sanan ... ily34.html

I also find it interesting that ALL of the work trains have come in from the south and nothing from the north. I'm not really familiar with the area north of Joliet. Does UP have to use trackage rights north of there that make it unattractive to run trains south from Chicago into Joliet? And if so, I wonder what their plans are after they start running trains on the line.

[EJ&ESDM809]

UP only owns the GM&O from St. Louis to Joliet. From Joliet to Chicago, the line is owned by CN. Ownership changes hands just north of Joliet Union Station, so UP would either have to use trackage rights on CN or BNSF's Chillicothe Subdivision which runs parrallel to the GM&O from Joliet to Chicago. I'm not sure why IC (CN) kept ownership of the Joliet to Chicago part of the GM&O but sold the rest to SP (UP).

That will be a big question after the yard in complete, how traffic north of Global 4 will change on the BNSF and CN. Currently the CN portion of the GM&O sees two BNSF trackage rights trains and a local, no CN through freights use this line, but with the EJ&E purchase, traffic down that part of the GM&O may increase as plans are in place for a new connection to enable trains to be able to run between the J and the GM&O.

[Mr. Tops]

UP only owns the GM&O from St. Louis to Joliet. From Joliet to Chicago, the line is owned by CN. Ownership changes hands just north of Joliet Union Station, so UP would either have to use trackage rights on CN or BNSF's Chillicothe Subdivision which runs parrallel to the GM&O from Joliet to Chicago. I'm not sure why IC (CN) kept ownership of the Joliet to Chicago part of the GM&O but sold the rest to SP (UP).

That will be a big question after the yard in complete, how traffic north of Global 4 will change on the BNSF and CN. Currently the CN portion of the GM&O sees two BNSF trackage rights trains and a local, no CN through freights use this line, but with the EJ&E purchase, traffic down that part of the GM&O may increase as plans are in place for a new connection to enable trains to be able to run between the J and the GM&O.

Ok, thanks Robby. I figured it was something like that. IC got rid of the GM&O as they already had a route into St. Louis when they merged with the GM&O. As to why they kept Joliet, I don't know - but there must have been something there they wanted to keep their hands on.

You would think the fact that they will be utilizing trackage rights north of Joliet would be a disadvantage. Maybe this segment will see a very limited amount of trains? Looking in my SPV Atlas, from Joliet, going north...I would assume that they the trains would stay on the GM&O (CN) and take the connection at Argo and use BRC tracks to either 75th Street and use CSX tracks up to Global 1, or go through Belt Jct and then north at 74th Street to Global 1. NS Ashland Ave and UP Canal Street are also nearby, so the routing would be similar.

To get to Global 2, trains would take a connection to BNSF (given that there is one somewhere -- in the Joliet area maybe?) They would use BNSF trackage to McCook where they'd get on IHB and take that to CP Hill. OR, I suppose too, instead of staying on the GM&O...ALL trains could take a connection to BNSF and mosey thier way around the Windy City. Like I said though, it may be a very limited number of trains. We may see al of the cars for transfer get sent to Global 2 and then just have one train between Global 2 and Joliet. I really have no idea...just throwing some possiblities out there. Sure will be interesting!

[Mr. Tops]

After thinking more about the impending changes regarding Global 4, here are some more theories:

Wth Global 4 being a yard servicing mainly the south/gulf, I doubt there will be any transfers to inner-Chicago yards. There are currently no transfer jobs between Yard Center and any other Chicago intermodal yard. If new business does arise to initiate transfers, you will probably see that happen at Yard Center, as UP can get around on mostly their own trackage. That being said, I think there will be a limited numberof trains north of Global 4. Anything that requires forwarding to another yard/RR will go into Yard Center, where it can utilize UP tracks deeper into Chicago.

With the opening of Global 4 will come the demise of Canal Street and possibly Global 1. At this point, those yards have no connection with Yard Center and/or Global 4. Traffic from those yards will be spread to Global 2 and Global 3. I foresee Global 3 getting quite a bit busier, with Global 4 allowing for expansion in the south/west intermodal business. Canal Street and Global 1 are close in proximity and are near downtown Chicago -- something most railroads are trying to get away from.

Global 4 will offer expanded capacity to Mexico, Texas, Arizona and possibly even Southern California. Trains that currently use BNSF trackage rights will more than likely originate/terminate at Global 4 and use the connector on the south end to Logistics Park and the Transcon. Currently, IBPCI, ICIBP and IBPLA start/end at Bedford Park and use the Transcon into/out of Chicago. Trains that use BNSF's Mendota Sub include ZCSTU, ZTUCS and ZEPCS -- all Canal Street trains. We may see a shift here, with the Canal Street trains moving to Global 4 and then using the Transcon, and the Bedford Park trains using the Mendota Sub, or all trains moving to the Transcon. I'm not sure what the contract states, or how long it is in effect, but these would all be prime trains to use UP rails south out of Global 4...

And then there are the possibilities of new relationships...as mentioned, the idea of CN getting in on this yard with trains running into Canada sounds like a good idea. Of course the traffic base has to be there in order for that to work. Global 4 can also free up Yard Center and make that a prime place to interchange with CSX.

That's all for now...

[Mr. Tops]

I posted the above message last night regarding the possiblity that some of the BNSF trackage rights trains getting moved to UP rails and now today there is an ICIBPD 26 running up through StL and Villa Grove, IL with cars for Kearney, NJ, Chambersburg, PA, Philadelphia, PA, Springfield, MA, Nashville, TN, Bedford Park, IL, Boston, MA, Columbus, Ohio, Cleveland, OH, Boston, MA, Springfiled, MA, among others.

I'll take a minute to explain my theory a little better: since this train (an extra section of the regular ICIBP, basically) and others that use BNSF tracks into Chicago and end up at Bedford Park for CSX to rework and send east. Well here's what I think could happen, in conjunction with CSX's new intermodal yard in North Baltimore opening as well...ICIBP will come up UP rails through StL and Villa Grove into Yard Center, pick out the Nashville's to be picked up by either Q121, Q127 or Q129 (or send them up to Bedford Park). Having the train come to Yard Center offers an easy forwarding to CSX, since their mainline is less than a mile to the north at Dolton Jct. UP could re-block the train for CSX if necessary, or not...CSX crew gets on at Yard Center, up to Dolton, turn the corner onto IHB and take IHB to Calumet Park, switch over to CSX rails and onto North Baltimore where further blocking can be done.

Vice versa for IBPCI and IBPLA. CSX can block the train at North Baltimore, send it to Yard Center. UP could also do the blocking if CSX doesn't. UP adds in anything else (like the stuff from Nashville) and sends the train south from Yard Center. Meanwhile, the current slew of Yard Center trains are moved over to the GM&O, save for maybe 1 or 2. There's also an AGBAM (IHB Gibson-Amourdale, KS) that uses BNSF tracks. That can easily turn the corner at Dolton and head south on the Villa Grove Sub.

Just some ideas...

[Typhoon]

Ok, thanks Robby. I figured it was something like that. IC got rid of the GM&O as they already had a route into St. Louis when they merged with the GM&O. As to why they kept Joliet, I don't know - but there must have been something there they wanted to keep their hands on.

The Des Plains River valley north of Joliet is chemical plant country. There are quite a few in the Lemont area alone. I think that most of them are served by the GM&O.

[Mr. Tops]

Ok, thanks Robby. I figured it was something like that. IC got rid of the GM&O as they already had a route into St. Louis when they merged with the GM&O. As to why they kept Joliet, I don't know - but there must have been something there they wanted to keep their hands on.

The Des Plains River valley north of Joliet is chemical plant country. There are quite a few in the Lemont area alone. I think that most of them are served by the GM&O.

Now that you mention it, I have seen videos of CN's "Oil Local" going through Lockport. Makes sense now.

[EJ&ESDM809]

That's the local that CN runs. It's the only CN train that uses thir portion of the GM&O, all other freights are BNSF trains. It usually runs pretty late at night through Lockport ad has often been using GTW poer, even though repainted IC geeps alo run on it and even EJ&E 661 has been seen running it at least once. The oil local's main job is basically to serve the refinaries around Lemont. It then runs all the way down to BNSF's yard at Logsitics Park as there is no other place to wye the power between Lemont and LPC. It then runs back to Glenn from LPC.

CN uses their part of the old GM&O more numerously north of the IHB crossing at Argo, as trains from Glenn Yard for other points of the CN get on and off the GM&O there heading to and from Glenn. There is a good possibility that once the connection between the GM&O and EJ&E is built, the trains will instead bypass the IHB and take the GM&O to Joliet and hop on the J, or they will originate out of Joliet or Kirk Yards instead of Glenn.

[EJ&ESDM809]

Today was a pretty good day on the old GM&O. UP ran the North Local south from Joliet to Wilmington, where it switched a grain elevator near there. Then it continued south and met a UP rail train at Odell. The rail train then ran north and met Amtrak 21 at Dwight, then headed north to Global 4. I caught both going through Wilmington. If this is a sign of the future, the GM&O is gonna turn into a fun line to railfan on.

[tango]

Bump this thread... and hijack it a little...

I drove under Canal Street Yard yesterday and it looked pretty busy - several UP engines sitting on the east side of the yard.

Do UP trains run up to Canal from Yard Center? If so, how? I don't see a clear shot on UP rails on my IDOT RR map. And if not, where do the IM trains at Canal St come in from?

Thanks!

[Mr. Tops]

Intermodal trains can run up to Canal Street from Yard Center but these are usually empty intermodal trains coming up from the south. From Yard Center, going north on UP tracks up to 81st Street, where UP's Villa Grove Sub ends, trains get crossed over onto Metra tracks there and continue north where UP's Rockwell Sub begins at the north end of Metra's 51st Street Yard. Canal Street is on the southern-most end of the Rockwell Sub. Right now there is an ACSCS turn out of Canal Street that comes down to Yard Center to interchange cars but other than that, anything else that goes up there from Yard Center is an extra train or a transfer.

Canal Street handles the westbound UPS traffic from Chicago right now. Outbound trains are ZCSLT, ZCSPX, ZCSSC. Inbound trains include ZEPCS, ZLTCS, ZSCCS and ZTUCS.

[tango]

Thank you, sir.

I see you're in Champaign. Gotta love that ex-IC line paralleling Neil Street - saw some cool stuff when I was down there a couple of weeks ago...

[Mr. Tops]

Yeah, the ex-IC directly parallels US-45 from Kankakee, IL to Mattoon, IL; roughly 120 miles. In Champaing/Savoy, US-45 is Neil Street.

[CSX_CO]

Rumor has it that the GM&O will host more trains directly out of St. Louis. Hence the reason UP has been spending big bucks at Ridgely Tower in Springfield. They are reconfiguring the interlocking plant, upgrading signals, and upgrading speeds. In the process, I think (since I've only been there 1 time) they will eliminate a diamond crossing, and replace it with cross overs.

When the UP Business train ran a few weeks ago, it came out of downtown, out the GM&O, and into the new facility. Since the tour south out of Chicago was to show off Global 4, I would think they'd be using the route their trains would be taking? It was an Engineering Special, so the purpose was to show off the work they've been doing, and how great their railroad is. Be interesting to see the route they actually take. They have trackage rights on the former ATSF, so perhaps they'll be taking advantage of those as Top suggested? Plus, being a UP train on the BNSF, those UP trains get absolutely NO respect from the dispatchers. They'll hold those trains for any form of home road train, including junk freights.

The GM&O would probably more devoid of interference, with just AMTRAK and a local north of Bloomington (the freight runs Bloomington to St. Louis to the A&S). Though, as it stands, I'm not sure how a train would get from the UP mainline to the GM&O unless they go east out of Global One? No direct connection exists at Argo to go west on the GM&O from East on the IHB, and no NW Quad connection at Brighton Park either. Then again, if its to tap intermodal from the southwest US (Texas), there may not be a need for that great of connection to the rest of the East-West UP system, only to other railroads. Current trains that would use the facility would use the GM&O out of St. Louis, rather than going through Villa Grove? It does connect to the IHB at CP Canal (West end of Argo Yard), which would afford a connection to the CSX and NS through the IHB, though it would be a decideably better connection to the CSX there, as Canal is only a stones throw from the leads into Clearing and Bedford Park.

Be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm not sure how likely Global 1 disappearing is. It makes a good block swapping location for the CSX, NS, and UP to exchange their trains in a central location, without running halfway across town. A bit 'difficult' for CSX and NS to get 'in and out' because everything comes in and leaves from the west side. Not to mention the archaic proceedure to get in. Call Global 1 to see if they'll take you. If they're ready, call the RB for permission to open up the 14th St connection, permission from the NS Ashland Yardmaster to cross the 'running' tracks there, and permission from the UP Dispatcher to get into to facility. When you're in, call the UP to report clear, call NS Ashland to report clear, call the RB to report clear. Come back out light power, process repeats.

Practice Safe CSX

[Mr. Tops]

The upgrades to the Joliet and Springfield Subs is largely in part due to the HSR that is going to be implemented on that line. I've been told by one of the high-ups in St. Louis that the trains out of Global 4 will use BNSF tracks. There are two phases to the project, the yard will only be half-capacity during the first phase, which will see the trains run on the BNSF. But, as time progresses and traffic warrants the yard to be brought to full capacity, that is when trains will start running on the GM&O. Right now the intermodal trains that run on the BNSF include ZEPCS, ZCSPX, ZLAG1, ZCIBP, KG1LA, KG1CI. You can see where they plan on the extent of the traffic at Global 4 coming from; Global 1 and Canal Street. One of those yards will close and the remaining traffic combined in the yard that survives.

[sd70accsxt700]

I'm not sure how likely Global 1 disappearing is. It makes a good block swapping location for the CSX, NS, and UP to exchange their trains in a central location, without running halfway across town.

That is why North Baltimore is being built. Much reduced if any more block swaping/interchaning trains at 59th/G1 after NB. Word is we will be running directly to G4 and BNSF Logistics Park after a little while.

[CSX_CO]

The upgrades to the Joliet and Springfield Subs is largely in part due to the HSR that is going to be implemented on that line. I've been told by one of the high-ups in St. Louis that the trains out of Global 4 will use BNSF tracks. There are two phases to the project, the yard will only be half-capacity during the first phase, which will see the trains run on the BNSF. But, as time progresses and traffic warrants the yard to be brought to full capacity, that is when trains will start running on the GM&O. Right now the intermodal trains that run on the BNSF include ZEPCS, ZCSPX, ZLAG1, ZCIBP, KG1LA, KG1CI. You can see where they plan on the extent of the traffic at Global 4 coming from; Global 1 and Canal Street. One of those yards will close and the remaining traffic combined in the yard that survives.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that Global 1 did many 'lifts' anymore. Of if they did 'lifts' it was all container traffic? Most of their trains were made up of inbound blocks from the NS and CSX. I know CSX used to have a several sets trains that called upon Global 1. Q133, Q139, Q147, and Q157 (which was a solid Global 1, 2, and 3 train). Granted, some of those have consolidated or eliminated with the downturn in the economy, but CSX also ran blocks up there off the Q169, and Q159 out of 59th St. This resulted in some pretty sizeable amounts of interchange, enough for UP to run a transfer between 59th and Global 1, and CSX to do the same. Also, 59th didn't build any trains that went south on the C&EI towards Nashville and Atlanta. Those train pairs called upon Bedford only.

As far as the traffic source coming from Global 1 and Canal St, I suppose its possible. But with the best (current interchange to NS and CSX) being Global 1, its anyone's guess where those BNSF trackage rights trains end up. Also, I think the UP using the BNSF is more of a case of 'we have the trackage rights, we're going to use them', then any real need to run those trains on the BNSF. Its a holdover from the SP, and it has to be costing them money.

Finally, the upgrades for HSR on the GM&O have largely already taken place, and have been done for about 5 years now. Completely new signal system, gone are the former B&O CPL's that made this line 'cool'. AMTRAK FLIES out there. Four Quad gates on roads, even gates on farmers crossings. The upgrades to Ridgely are to increase the freight volumes on the line, which have to be in preparation for the Global 4. I mean, why would you spend money to BNSF to run your trains when you absolutely don't have to anymore? Springfield is already 'up in arms' over the UP's proposed traffic increases, and UP and Springfield are working to find a common ground (greasing palms with overpasses, etc).

Practice Safe CSX