Michigan May Cut Amtrak Subsidies

[CSX_CO]

Airlines expect you to arrive 2 hrs before your flight leaves to allow time for checked baggage and security. I missed my flight because I didn't know this, and getting to an airport 2 hrs before hand is absolutely stupid.

I flew out of Detroit to California in May. I got to DTW about an hour before my flight was to depart. By the time I made it through security a good half hour or so had gone by. I made my flight just fine. How close did you arrive to the departure time that you ended up missing it?

Not to get off subject, but...

I was there 1 hr prior to departure. Indiapolis has a brand new airport with more screening capacity than needed at this point. When I got my flight rescheduled, I made it to my gate within 20 minutes, and probably 10 minutes of that was spent walking to my gate at the far end of the concourse. No wait for security, and I was through in under 5 minutes. If I hadn't been going for a week, I wouldn't have needed the checked baggage option. Don't know if that would have made a difference or not. I've had connections that were less than an hour apart, and they were able to get my bags to my connecting flight in less time than that.

I'll still fly with said Airline, but flying in General is a hassle that we are forced to put up with.

Practice Safe CSX

[AARR]

I fly for business on average once or twice a month. My experience is if I arrive at the airport two hours before departure everything goes smooth and I sit around for an hour or so working on my laptop.

If I arrvie an hour before departure everything goes wrong that could go wrong and I end up rushing to make my flight.

Maybe it's just me

[azimmer]

We must be realistic. The passenger train, as we know it, is an antiquated form of transportation.

America is a huge country. It is roughly 2000 x 1000 miles in breadth. These are enormous distances for anything other than air transportation to cover, especially when we also consider the desire of the modern human to be able to get anywhere very quickly. No one wants a leisurely journey that spans several days. For whatever reason, we all want to arrive at our destination in a matter of hours. Only the airliner can fulfill this need.

Trains may make sense for more localized travel -- say within 200-300 miles -- but in order to be attractive in this context they would have to satisfy two major conditions. Trains would have to be fast and they would have to be plentiful. Only the promise of high speed travel on a large choice of trains would create any kind of market for local passenger rail service.

But how could we accomplish this? The current rail infrastructure is totally inadequate to support fast trains. It would require a massive and long-term commitment of cash from the government to build the proper rail system.

Amtrak is just not fast enough. It should be possible to travel from Detroit to Chicago in 2 or 2.5 hours, but this cannot happen with our current track and equipment. Unless we are willing to make this commitment to a high speed localized rail service, Amtrak is not worth saving.

So get the ball rolling. Contact your local representative and inform him that you want to build a new national rail infrastructure and you want to build it now.

Whew! I can't believe I said that. It would be easier to petition for a manned trip to Pluto.

AZ

[KenB]

You are correct but for now and to work toward that goal why not get the trains we have to run on time daily, make improvements so the current trains can run at 79 mph for more of their route. The current equipment will operate over 100 mph as evidenced on the stretch west of Kalamazoo but west of Porter its down to 45mph to 55 mph.

The State needs to purchase the Michigan Central and make improvements to the line such as they do with the freeways which do not make a profit nor do they pay for themselvs. We need a balanced transportation system in this country and that includes air, rail and highway.

How much profit does an airport make? How about the air traffic control system? When was the last time you saw a United truck servicing the radar units.

[Cinderpath]

We must be realistic. The passenger train, as we know it, is an antiquated form of transportation.

America is a huge country. It is roughly 2000 x 1000 miles in breadth. These are enormous distances for anything other than air transportation to cover, especially when we also consider the desire of the modern human to be able to get anywhere very quickly. No one wants a leisurely journey that spans several days. For whatever reason, we all want to arrive at our destination in a matter of hours. Only the airliner can fulfill this need.

I rode a train this fall in Europe, I traveled 600 miles in just over three hours, non stop no less. - Essentially it was much faster than flying, flying would have taken approximately 5 hours calculating getting to and from airports and screwing around in terminals with early check-ins and security. I watched the countryside roll by from the bar car, and had a great lunch, It beat a bag of peanuts whipped at me by an indifferent stewardosaurus with a crabby attitude and was not some overpriced, unhealthy crap on the plane or in the airport.

But how could we accomplish this? The current rail infrastructure is totally inadequate to support fast trains. It would require a massive and long-term commitment of cash from the government to build the proper rail system.

-So do it, we put a man on the moon, and other less wealthy countries have done it, there is not a single excuse that we can not accomplish this too.

-Besides show me where the majority of air carriers are profitable? The system as a whole is not profitable, and is loosing buckets of money. It is funny how people like to talk about Amtrak not being profitable, but fail to mention the $ 8 Billion bailout the airlines got after 9/11, are still money losers, then on top that pawned their pension obligations (Another $8 billion) off on US Taxpayers the the USPGB. Not even GM could pull ff such a feat, that is apparently reserved for banks and airlines. We could have been well on our way toward rebuilding our rail infrastructure with this. Not to mention when oil goes back to $147 a barrel (it will) airlines are toast, but we are even more screwed without an electrified HSR alternative.

-Laugh all you want at the French- but their trains are running 186mph in regular service from, sourced from nuclear power. When I was there last year, the high fuel price ($8 a gallon there) did not detour people from traveling, here it was the match that lit the tinderbox of our economy that has still not recovered.

[GTW6401]

You cant compare the service you get in Europe to Amtrak. Its like comparing Heidi Klum to Rosie O'Donnell.

[J T]

-So do it, we put a man on the moon, and other less wealthy countries have done it, there is not a single excuse that we can not accomplish this too.

The big difference with that, Michael, is that there are no NIMBYs on the moon. The only way this country could have high speed rail traffic would be to build new rail lines through people's back yards. Unfortunately, the NIMBYs will NEVER allow that.

[Raildudes dad]

-So do it, we put a man on the moon, and other less wealthy countries have done it, there is not a single excuse that we can not accomplish this too.

The big difference with that, Michael, is that there are no NIMBYs on the moon. The only way this country could have high speed rail traffic would be to build new rail lines through people's back yards. Unfortunately, the NIMBYs will NEVER allow that.

Article over the weekrend in the paper about some Californians complaining because they might have to cut some trees etc for the LA - SF high speed route. Land of the fruits, nuts and granola bars

[J T]

Article over the weekrend in the paper about some Californians complaining because they might have to cut some trees etc for the LA - SF high speed route. Land of the fruits, nuts and granola bars

Oh, that's right...I completely forgot about the environmentalist wackos. Hell, they can't even complete the U.S. 31/I-94 junction because of those idiots.

[GrandTrunkFan]

An idea I had to boost ridership on Amtrak a little bit would be to take the popular Auto Train concept and apply it to all the longhaul trains. I think if they attached an autorack or 2 on trains like the Southwest Chief, Empire Builder, etc it would boost the ridership of people who want to go across country and want the privilage of using their own vehicles. Imagine hopping onto the train, with your car in tow, and being able to tour LA, Chicago, New York, Seattle, wherever in your own vehicle. You wouldnt have to pay for a rental car or taxis or whatnot. Just my 2 cents.

[TCP]

Every year we hear the same threats and then it seems someone somewhere finds the money for another year of operations. Let's hope this year is the same.

[KenB]

Again, we can have hi-spped rail BUT we must take it one step at a time. We need ALL YOU you to write to YOUR government leaders to let them know YOU want good passenger rail. That is not e-mail but paper and pencil type mail.

So far Grandholm just talkes hi-speed rail but has NO specifics. Need to get the whole Michigan line up to 79 mph first. Need to get a seprate right of way from Porter into Chicago. Need to build a by-pass around Albion.

Now, get those three projects done so trains will be consistentaly on time than you can expand the train crontrol system east from Kalamazoo to get the speed above 79.

The current equipment will operate at 100 mph.

But this takes YOU instead of posting on this board to WRITE to your State leaders and CONGRESS. Politician has only two jobs. One to get elected and two to get re-elected. If the people who vote get their ear that that becomes the flavor of the day just like windmills is the current flavor of the day to stop global warming. If we build windmills and shut down those nasty coal burning plants than global warming will be stopped so get you paper and pencil out and start writing.

[J T]

Again, we can have hi-spped rail BUT we must take it one step at a time. We need ALL YOU you to write to YOUR government leaders to let them know YOU want good passenger rail. That is not e-mail but paper and pencil type mail.

So far Grandholm just talkes hi-speed rail but has NO specifics. Need to get the whole Michigan line up to 79 mph first. Need to get a seprate right of way from Porter into Chicago. Need to build a by-pass around Albion.

Now, get those three projects done so trains will be consistentaly on time than you can expand the train crontrol system east from Kalamazoo to get the speed above 79.

The current equipment will operate at 100 mph.

But this takes YOU instead of posting on this board to WRITE to your State leaders and CONGRESS. Politician has only two jobs. One to get elected and two to get re-elected. If the people who vote get their ear that that becomes the flavor of the day just like windmills is the current flavor of the day to stop global warming. If we build windmills and shut down those nasty coal burning plants then global warming will be stopped so get you paper and pencil out and start writing.

You really can't stop something that wasn't started to begin with.

That's a warm and fuzzy post, Ken, but unfortunately, as I already stated in this thread, the NIMBYs will NEVER allow new lines to be built through their backyards.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Article over the weekrend in the paper about some Californians complaining because they might have to cut some trees etc for the LA - SF high speed route. Land of the fruits, nuts and granola bars

Oh, that's right...I completely forgot about the environmentalist wackos. Hell, they can't even complete the U.S. 31/I-94 junction because of those idiots.

I thought the state just didn't have the money to finish that project. It's not THAT hard to take the two lane route from I-94 over to US-31 though...unless your car stalls out under 50 mph.

[intocable83]

364/365 is one of the trains in Michigan who gained ridership so I think it would be stupid to cut it. There still are a lot of people out there who are unaware how cheap it is to ride a train and then there are those who don't even have a clue their is a ''passenger train" still around even though it stops in a town they live in! Instead of running all these McDonald's commercials on television and then having people complain they are overweight, maybe they could cut a few of those commercials and run some ad's advertising Amtrak? Just a thought

[AARR]

If we build windmills and shut down those nasty coal burning plants than global warming will be stopped...

If our politicians didn't buy into this it would be laughable. But they see an opportunity to raise our taxes and take more rights away from us so the ridiculous sharade continues...

[mikekmac]

Free-enterprise capitalism isn't a one-size-fits-all solution, and can't be.

Capitalism as practiced here is hamstrung by the short time horizons of too many management teams, catering to influential and impatient investors. "Make money fast" doesn't find all optimal solutions. (It could be--and probably has been--argued that any optimal solutions it does find, it finds by accident.)

But beyond that, not every worthy endeavor can turn a profit, because not every good can be monetized. Sometimes we do things--and gladly bear the cost--because we want to live in a society/community/reality in which those things are done. Many of the "goods" societies pursue are intangibles--justice, pride, equality, knowledge, security. Some of our aspirations have timelines measured in generations, not fiscal year quarters.

Public libraries and schools and parks and beaches, radio telescopes and particle accelerators, 911 and the help it can bring, the Interstate Highway System, footprints on the moon and robots on Mars, summer music in the park, public defenders, the National Weather Service, rural electrification, fireworks on the 4th, air traffic control, bike/jogging trails...just a few examples of "goods" created outside the sphere of free-enterprise capitalism, and unlikely to have ever been created within it. I don't see why passenger rail can't be on that list. It certainly is elsewhere in the world.

[J T]

I thought the state just didn't have the money to finish that project.

Nope...environmentalist wackos were responsible for the incompletion...

http://www.michiganhighways.org/indepth ... rrien.html

While progress was being made on the southern end of the freeway, the picture was not quite so rosy on the northern end. While the original FEIS for the entire US-31 corridor from Matthew Rd to I-94 had been approved in 1981, the Blue Creek Fen between Benton Center and Millburg was soon after identified as a "unique resource." According to MDOT documents, "the fen provides habitat to many unique species including the Mitchell's satyr butterfly, identified as a Federal Endangered Species in 1991." (For reasons yet unclear, the endangered species first identified in the fen was the Karner Blue butterfly, which at some point was correctd to the Mitchell's satyr.)

It's not THAT hard to take the two lane route from I-94 over to US-31 though...unless your car stalls out under 50 mph.

Sure, it's not THAT hard, but it's utterly ridiculous that the project can't be completed because of some butterflies.