Why no transload in TC?

[MIGN-Todd]

With all the businesses here in the greater Traverse City area I'm here wondering why there isn't any such facilty around. We have a little bit of everything here and I'm surprized that a transload facilty hasn't been built. Even the old C&O team track here had its switch removed (where the Ann Arbor box and caboose now sit). I've wondered about the sales people with GLC- if they were really looking that hard for customers(but was told they are fairly aggressive). The city folk are not too keen on the railroad here for some reason but, if it weren't for them- TC would not have come as far as it has. I wanna see traffic up here- make it happen!

[Raildudes dad]

No trans-load because there's very little that would move by rail. No need to rail sand or stone in or out, propane comes by truck from Ontario or lower Mi on our Michigan Special 8 axle trailers. Fuel by ship or Michigan Special trailer from Muskegon & Ferrysburg. ( I worked a couple weeks last summer on M-20 west of M-37 and there was a steady steam of fuel trucks. A Brenner driver says that's the route to TC area) Scrap goes by truck to Saginaw. Very little corn or wheat. Meijers & Walmayt are all truck

[Shorthaul]

How much business is there left on the line north to Petoskey? I don't think a lot. I can actually see (down the road) abandoning north of Cadillac and setting up a large transload facility there. If not Cadillac, then it could be located south of the northernmost customer that ships enough cars to make operating and maintaining the line profitable. With such a transloading facility, the GLC could go after new business, as well as save money.
Traverse City is not an industrial area, and outside of intermodal (and that's obviously not gonna happen), railroads serve industry, so there is really very little market, and I honestly can't understand how the GLC stays open AT ALL north of Yuma. Same for the LSRC to Gaylord. What's even left up there?

[TCBrent]

It's funny to hear people say that Traverse City is not an industrial area, because at one time it sure was. Hard to believe how many things used to be made in this town and now almost all of it is gone. A good portion of the West Bay shoreline was lined with different industries, mostly canneries. Also, Boardman Lake was surrounded with different plants that made all kinds of different products as well. How times have changed not only in Traverse City, but across the state of Michigan!
-TC Brent

[RRTTF]

The simple answer to the original question is (choose one):

1. There is insufficient business to justify a transload operation.
2. The railroad simply does not want it.
3. The railroad's accessorial and/or haulage charges are economically disadvantageous (meaning, truck is less expensive).
4. The railroad is not as aggressive at marketing as one responder suggested.
5. The track is excepted track (which would restrict ability to haul in fuel/propane/hazmat).
6. All of the above.
7. None of the above.

[MIGN-Todd]

3 and 5. Or all of the above

[TSB]

The simple answer to the original question is (choose one):

1. There is insufficient business to justify a transload operation.
2. The railroad simply does not want it.
3. The railroad's accessorial and/or haulage charges are economically disadvantageous (meaning, truck is less expensive).
4. The railroad is not as aggressive at marketing as one responder suggested.
5. The track is excepted track (which would restrict ability to haul in fuel/propane/hazmat).
6. All of the above.
7. None of the above.

The first four are wrong. The fifth is reverseable. #6 & 7 defy logic.
Many previous attempts were made but Class Is absolutely will NOT allow intermodal equipment to be
interchanged to a short line. Their logic is "insufficient 'velocity of the asset.' " Short lines average haul/day
is about 2 miles. TSB haul/day exceeds 200 miles. They weren't convinced. TSB is actually a "regional."

Interchanges are also a problem. Once an interchange is made at Ann Pere or Durand, the product arrives
in TC within 24 hours. The class Is averaged more than a week to get to interchange from the nearest hub.
The reason propane was lost to truck was that CSXT from Sarnia to Ann Pere took nine days. With the volatilety
of propane prices the customers couldn't stand ten days from purchase to delivery.

If a DC were to be built serving TC, the best locaion would be just south of Kalkaska where the main line
(not excepted) meets 72, 66 and 131.

Admittedly, My info. is more than four years old but, at least it is based on facts that did at some time exist.

[MIGN-Todd]

I had no idea the class 1's moved so slow. You'd think after all this time, they would've learned that time is money. I guess if TC was in the area that Mr.TSB talked about, the GLC would be a lot busier north of Cadillac. Thank you Mr.TSB- it's nice to have an expert in the general area! One more question if you will....... Was the State thinking about upgrading the rest of the line into TC from where they stopped along River Rd. or were they just going to leave it as -is the remainder of the way?

[MSchwiebert]

Even if Intermodal would be allowed to be interchanged, I couldn't picture a rate being set where it'd be profitable to both the short line and the originating carrier and it would be attractive to those that would use it. In addition, it's still too close to Chicago to compete with trucking. Finally, who's running intermodal across Michigan now that could be interchanged with?

[Raildudes dad]

The transit times and interchange issues - for those that read my early morning CSX post on the GRE, there are 3 cars there, 1 Amway and 2 Rosewoods that have been there now 15 days waiting to be picked up by CSX. If they get picked up Monday night (no guarantees), they will have been at interchange 17 days. I know when the GRE was servicing St Mary's cement, the quickest the cars would get from Bouwmanville ON to GR was 14 days but usually longer. The terminal manager said he could live with 14 days IF the transit time was consistent. But since it varied all over the place, he couldn't depend on the service to keep his silos supplied and had to use trucks for that.

[penn central]

Mr TSB has some good points, CN has inter-modal service across Michigan, On the Flint and Holly Subs that meet at Durand and the GLC goes right through there. Boy that would be nice. To bad Mr P J Dewolfe has passed on he could share his thoughts with us to, I'm sure Mr TSB would agree.

[Rick in TC]

Did anyone see on michiganrailroads.com the photo from Friday of GLC delivering 3 cars to Amerihart (the new customer in Traverse City/Bates? The GLC crew shut down #389 and helped unload the two centerbeams!! Now if that's not service you can only get from a shortline/regional, I don't know what is. They then took the two centerbeams right back to Cadillac, leaving the SP boxcar to be unloaded. I saw those three cars headed north to Cadilac Thurday afternoon, and they were in TC Friday morning. Not bad. Now, how about going after the flour business at Sara Lee in TC- heck, maybe the GLC crews will unload those cars too (like the King Milling guys unload their trucks).

[Shorthaul]

Mr TSB has some good points, CN has inter-modal service across Michigan, On the Flint and Holly Subs that meet at Durand and the GLC goes right through there. Boy that would be nice. To bad Mr P J Dewolfe has passed on he could share his thoughts with us to, I'm sure Mr TSB would agree.

There is no way that intermodal service would be initiated to Northern Michigan the way that things are set up right now. Intermodal today is only really practical for hauls of 500 miles or more, and there needs to be sufficient business going from one terminal to another so that dedicated trains can be run. I doubt that there is sufficient business to open a market between Chicago and Northern Michigan, especially since things are so spread out up there. That said, I can definitely see a day (although very far off, MSchweibert ) where intermodal for that kind of distance is viable. I believe the main reason that the distance that makes intermodal viable is so far is due to the cost of the intermodal terminals. I don't know why these costs are so high, maybe somebody can explain this. It seems that intermodal cranes could be computer controlled, making them MUCH faster and more efficient than relying on the eye of a human. Has this been tried?

On another note, a transloading facility at the point mentioned earlier (south of Kalkaska) is probably a great way to gain business on bulk goods. I don't know if there is sufficient volume, but it sure seems like a good idea.

[TSB]

There are many "intermodal" services that don't involve trailor or container on flat car.
Nearly all Make bulk/Break bulk terminals are truly intermodal (not capital I). There is
a coke distribution center in Selma yard, a plastic DC in Clare, cement in Elmyra, lumber
yards are break bulk and scrap yards are make bulk as are all elevators. Most, by far, of
the 50% growth in traffic on the TSB during our ownership involved partnership with trucks.
There is also an (underused) boxcar break bulk in South Boardman. We had temporary DCs
for pipe all over the state. The salt/potash facility in Cadillac was an honest effort as were
many others including propane, the loss of which was is spite of worthy service by TSB forces.
I must admit that I feel at times insulted by railfan marketing experts. 99% of the time I just
keep my mouth shut. I'll go back to doing that now.

[Ben Higdon]

Come on now, TSB! I like reading your commentary and appreciate your info from "the inside", I hope you won't hold back on putting your two cents in.

[AARR]

There are many "intermodal" services that don't involve trailor or container on flat car.
Nearly all Make bulk/Break bulk terminals are truly intermodal (not capital I). There is
a coke distribution center in Selma yard, a plastic DC in Clare, cement in Elmyra, lumber
yards are break bulk and scrap yards are make bulk as are all elevators. Most, by far, of
the 50% growth in traffic on the TSB during our ownership involved partnership with trucks.
There is also an (underused) boxcar break bulk in South Boardman. We had temporary DCs
for pipe all over the state. The salt/potash facility in Cadillac was an honest effort as were
many others including propane, the loss of which was is spite of worthy service by TSB forces.
I must admit that I feel at times insulted by railfan marketing experts. 99% of the time I just
keep my mouth shut. I'll go back to doing that now.

The more I learn about railroading the more I realize I don't know

[MIGN-Todd]

We don't know the facts M. TSB. People like yourself, set us straight. There isn't enough actual employees (or former execs) on here to keep alot of us in the know. This leaves some of us (like myself) who question actions supposedly taken or some not taken by the railroads. I believe I know quite a bit about the local regionals but I'm still missing 95% of the facts. I know "history" (what happened yesterday) and am in dire need to know what happens tomorrow- like many of us.

[chapmaja]

I saw those three cars headed north to Cadilac Thurday afternoon, and they were in TC Friday morning. Not bad. Now, how about going after the flour business at Sara Lee in TC- heck, maybe the GLC crews will unload those cars too (like the King Milling guys unload their trucks).

The problem with going after the flour is logistical.

For the flour to go from King Milling to Sara Lee it would take the following routing.

GRE to GR to CSX. CSX would take it to Lansing, where a different train would take it to Howell where the GLC would pick it up and have it to TC within 2 business days.

The problem is it would take one day for the GR to get it to CSX. CSX would take at least a day, if not 14 to get the cars from the GRE into Wyoming Terminal. They would then sit in Wyoming a day before going on a train to Ensel. They would then sit a day or two before going on the local for the CSX interchange at Ann Pere. From there the GLC would have it in TC in a couple days at the most. That means a likely minimum of 5 or 6 days to get the product from Lowell to TC.


A truck can make the trip from King Milling to Sara Lee in less than 3 hours, meaning, they can make a trip, unload and get back to Lowell in a day, and possibly make two trips per day, if they just swap trailers. That's a big difference from a minimum of 5 to 6 days.

[TSB]

The problem is it would take one day for the GR to get it to CSX. CSX would take at least a day, if not 14 to get the cars from the GRE into Wyoming Terminal. They would then sit in Wyoming a day before going on a train to Ensel. They would then sit a day or two before going on the local for the CSX interchange at Ann Pere. From there the GLC would have it in TC in a couple days at the most. That means a likely minimum of 5 or 6 days to get the product from Lowell to TC.

The only part you missed was the local from Ensel being too busy the first two attempts to make it to Ann Pere.
The third attempt, in however many days, is too busy to stop at Ann Pere and the load goes further east...

[AARR]

Sarah Lee also gets sugar/sweeteners by truck that could arrive by rail. I think SL is just anti-rail as they've been approached many times about rail service but they stick with trucks.