AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics

[CSX_CO]

Currently sitting in Avon, and have been for the last 2 days, is a cut of approximately 6 ex-METRA IC Electric commuter cars. Billing shows Great Lakes Central. Route should be Q218 to Toledo, and then up to Michigan. Cars may move tomorrow, if CSX's Clearance Bureau can apply the clearance information to the cars. Came out of E. St. Louis on the 28th. GLC for storage I assume?

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[mrpilot88]

That would be correct. They will be stored with the other ex Metra bi-level cars near the engine shops in Owosso.

[sd70accsxt700]

Ok I under stand the ex CB&Q cars, but ex electrics? Are they going to convert them to standard cars, or is there a new electric line being built that I have not heard about.

[Robert MacDowell]

Really??? Does anyone have the car numbers handy? I'm wondering where they came from.

Interesting to see those. There are VERY few preserved, and in only 3 places. Here is Frank Hicks' database. http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-quer ... agelen=200

They are nice cars with cab controls. But converting them to diesel-pulled would be a "start over from scratch" sort of thing. The control stand and MU controls are General Electric type CM which are made for EMU coaches, not compatible with diesels. They do not have 480VAC HEP wiring, they would have 1500V DC, trainlined possibly on the roof. The heating and A/C are designed to run on 1500VDC. And as sealed window coaches they'd be pretty useless without A/C, the folks at Boone mentioned to me that was a problem they were having with theirs.

Under wire they'd be quite excellent. They are EMU's with 600 horsepower per unit, which means they accelerate much more briskly than diesel hauled trains. Ideal for short haul commuter stops, say every mile or two. And you can economically run a train as few as 2 cars because you aren't dragging a diesel around.

Highliners need more than simple trolley wire. It needs to be catenary, setup for pantagraphs, and insulated for 1500VDC. As it happens, that's exactly what WRM is restoring on their line... which tells you it's within the means of volunteers to do it on the cheap. Oh the possibilities...

[CSX_CO]

Really??? Does anyone have the car numbers handy? I'm wondering where they came from.

Interesting to see those. There are VERY few preserved, and in only 3 places. Here is Frank Hicks' database. http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-quer ... agelen=200

They are nice cars with cab controls. But converting them to diesel-pulled would be a "start over from scratch" sort of thing. The control stand and MU controls are General Electric type CM which are made for EMU coaches, not compatible with diesels. They do not have 480VAC HEP wiring, they would have 1500V DC, trainlined possibly on the roof. The heating and A/C are designed to run on 1500VDC. And as sealed window coaches they'd be pretty useless without A/C, the folks at Boone mentioned to me that was a problem they were having with theirs.

Under wire they'd be quite excellent. They are EMU's with 600 horsepower per unit, which means they accelerate much more briskly than diesel hauled trains. Ideal for short haul commuter stops, say every mile or two. And you can economically run a train as few as 2 cars because you aren't dragging a diesel around.

Highliners need more than simple trolley wire. It needs to be catenary, setup for pantagraphs, and insulated for 1500VDC. As it happens, that's exactly what WRM is restoring on their line... which tells you it's within the means of volunteers to do it on the cheap. Oh the possibilities...

Well, they are in pretty rough shape. Windows are missing, elements have been getting into them, let alone the ice storm they endured while parked in Avon. Last I knew, still sitting in the Avon Car shop while mechanical forces figure out what to do with these cars. They are 'rear riders' but have the air cut out of them. Can't run the rear car of the train without operative air brakes.

AARX 1505 is one of the car numbers off hand.

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[Robert MacDowell]

Thanks. 1505 is in the valid range of Metra Highliners. However it's not any known car preserved so it's clearly other stock.

[StrayWolf716]

Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Nice to see them going somewhere though, I'll have to concede, instead of reaching their demise. May as well add them to all their friends already congregating up there at GLC.

[ns8401]

Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Nice to see them going somewhere though, I'll have to concede, instead of reaching their demise. May as well add them to all their friends already congregating up there at GLC.

Yep, add them to the fleet of cars that will NOT be seeing service in or around Howell or Ann Arbor... From what I'm hearing WALLY is sorta kinda doomed...

[CSX_CO]

Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Nice to see them going somewhere though, I'll have to concede, instead of reaching their demise. May as well add them to all their friends already congregating up there at GLC.

Yep, add them to the fleet of cars that will NOT be seeing service in or around Howell or Ann Arbor... From what I'm hearing WALLY is sorta kinda doomed...

Don't worry, I have a feeling they won't be moving anytime soon. Not until they figure out how to get operable air brakes on them. Still can't believe these things got out of E. St. Louis in the condition they are in.

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[Robert MacDowell]

Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.

You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them. So you need that 80/20 match from the Feds. You spend 10 years trying to weasel an earmark. There are strings attached to the money. One is that they want a custom design tailored for your needs. So you hire designers, have public hearings, produce a spec. On top of that all the Federal terms and conditions. The spec fills a Bankers Box.

Every bidder must pay people millions of dollars to read all that paper. Therefore you only get the companies good at chasing government money... not good at building coaches. And they're building custom. The first production is obviously broken, but the maker claims it meets spec. Round and round. You get some stuff fixed but the government is demanding you start service soon, or give back the money. So you reluctantly accept delivery of the coaches as-is. The builder knows you will do this. All this has taken you another 10 years.

No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.

[CSX_CO]

Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.

You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them.

I got a feeling they're going to be spending a lot of $$$ to get these things in any type of shape to be road worthy for passengers. They are ROUGH.

Tried to run them out last night, but these things require so much air to make the brakes work, that you can't run them on the rear of a freight train, despite the fact that they are rear rider cars. I got a feeling when the power situation improves there will be a 'special' move to get these things up towards Toledo.

Practice Safe CSX

[ns8401]

Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.

You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them.

I got a feeling they're going to be spending a lot of $$$ to get these things in any type of shape to be road worthy for passengers. They are ROUGH.

Tried to run them out last night, but these things require so much air to make the brakes work, that you can't run them on the rear of a freight train, despite the fact that they are rear rider cars. I got a feeling when the power situation improves there will be a 'special' move to get these things up towards Toledo.

Practice Safe CSX

Just curious would they work behind the engines or is there a reason that isn't usually done? I've seen freights that had coaches on them and they are usually on the rear as you said would be needed. Just curious why that is?

[StrayWolf716]

Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.

You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them. So you need that 80/20 match from the Feds. You spend 10 years trying to weasel an earmark. There are strings attached to the money. One is that they want a custom design tailored for your needs. So you hire designers, have public hearings, produce a spec. On top of that all the Federal terms and conditions. The spec fills a Bankers Box.

Every bidder must pay people millions of dollars to read all that paper. Therefore you only get the companies good at chasing government money... not good at building coaches. And they're building custom. The first production is obviously broken, but the maker claims it meets spec. Round and round. You get some stuff fixed but the government is demanding you start service soon, or give back the money. So you reluctantly accept delivery of the coaches as-is. The builder knows you will do this. All this has taken you another 10 years.

No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.

All of that seems like points well made and supported.. however I still fail to see the reason why so many of these coaches are needed. It's not like this is a communter rail start up in a major metropolitan area. I couldn't even imagine the rider base to be of extravagant numbers to begin with.
Spares, excess cars for parts, etc. isn't a bad idea, but there seems to be plenty up there at the shops already.
Hopefully I'm wrong and it turns into the next big thing. But for now, I'm just trying to make sense out of what seems to be no sense. Not trying to doom it before it ever takes off or anything.

[sd70accsxt700]

You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them. So you need that 80/20 match from the Feds. You spend 10 years trying to weasel an earmark. There are strings attached to the money. One is that they want a custom design tailored for your needs. So you hire designers, have public hearings, produce a spec. On top of that all the Federal terms and conditions. The spec fills a Bankers Box.

Every bidder must pay people millions of dollars to read all that paper. Therefore you only get the companies good at chasing government money... not good at building coaches. And they're building custom. The first production is obviously broken, but the maker claims it meets spec. Round and round. You get some stuff fixed but the government is demanding you start service soon, or give back the money. So you reluctantly accept delivery of the coaches as-is. The builder knows you will do this. All this has taken you another 10 years.

No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.

All a moot point unless they are going to sting wire on the Michigan Line or GLC.

[CSX_CO]

Just curious would they work behind the engines or is there a reason that isn't usually done? I've seen freights that had coaches on them and they are usually on the rear as you said would be needed. Just curious why that is?

The people who own the coaches, along with the railroad, don't want to subject them to the 'in train forces' that moving on the head end of a freight train incur. They are rear riders to avoid this.

These cars don't work very well. I believe they ran these cars with either 100lbs or 110lbs of pressure. They take a lot of air to get to charge up and set up the brakes. At the rear of a long freight train, that's tough to get. From what I've gathered, these cars got moved to Avon with the air lines blocked. Not sure how you can move something on the rear of a train without operative airbrakes, let alone accept the things in interchange. They are also leaking air like a sieve.

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[intocable83]

http://glcrailroad.com/passenger.php

[Robert MacDowell]

You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. ....... No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.

All of that seems like points well made and supported.. however I still fail to see the reason why so many of these coaches are needed. It's not like this is a communter rail start up in a major metropolitan area. I couldn't even imagine the rider base to be of extravagant numbers to begin with.
Spares, excess cars for parts, etc. isn't a bad idea, but there seems to be plenty up there at the shops already.
Hopefully I'm wrong and it turns into the next big thing. But for now, I'm just trying to make sense out of what seems to be no sense. Not trying to doom it before it ever takes off or anything.

No worries I appreciate that. You mean the dozens of diesel hauled coaches? Easy - the price. I hear Metra was practically giving the coaches away, not sure why. At that price, "too many" is a much easier problem to fix than "too few".

Look at L.A. Metrolink, they bought way more stock than they needed so they'd have headroom to expand for 20 years. They were running mostly simple "4 in the morning, 4 in the evening" type commute service. Then BLAM, the Northridge quake busts up the roads. Metrolink seizes the opportunity to extend routes and run 18x7, just like Chicago. Guess what happens after they fix the roads. The riders stay. So the train stays. Instantly Metrolink is where they planned to be in 2020. Only works if you have the coaches to pull it off.

As for the electrics, they got 6. 2 rotating into the shop, that leaves 4. One cab per car, so two trains absolute max. That's enough for a simple shuttle service of 2-10 miles, about what you could electrify cheaply. (1 substation, no feeder.)