CSX says no!

[hobojim]

see next post

[hobojim]

If i felt like going thru the hassle, I might just tell them to arrest me, but they better make sure they have a legal case for which I will be prosecuted or I will sue them for false arrest.

That's brave talk, but have you considered the consequences?

The arresting officer will go home after his shift for a few beers, some TV, and whatever, while you will spend all night in a jail cell, with pissing drunks and screaming drug addicts, and hope that the judge the following morning will release you without bail.

Even if there is no conviction (and that may not even be decided in the same year), your arrest record may come back to haunt you later in life. Job loss, no credit, etc., etc.

Good luck with the law suit. Would you be able to afford an attorney? Some lawyers may accept the case based on a percentage of the damage award, but if the judge or jury rules against you, then you are stuck with the court costs. Whatever the situation, any law suit will take at least 2-3 years of time to plod through the courts.

Is all this worth it just to defend your personal honor at the railroad crossing?

I'll pass.

Being old retired and with some money, I am not worried about losing a job or credit. I used to think like you do but as I have aged I am getting crankier and less tolerant with injustice. I do wonder though how long it will be if we citizens continue to let authorities take away our rights without a peep before we have no rights?

[azimmer]

That's it? Questioned? Were you told to leave? If not, where is the problem? Oh...my...God. The police wanted to check on you and see what you were doing. Big deal. You make no mention of further 'harassment' by the police, so I assume they let you stay on the public street?

As I mentioned, I don't like to have to explain myself each and every time I happen to stand a bit too close to the tracks. Railfanning is for enjoyment, and how can anyone enjoy the experience when the RR police insist on breathing down your neck. Would you want to go for a walk around the block in the evening if you had to explain your behavior to the police each and every time?

But to satisfy those who may be seeking horror stories, let me point out that the incident I describe in this thread is only one of many. Here is another:

One day as I sat in the comfort of my rec room, I heard a loud nocking. Opening the front door I was met with two guys in suits holding their ID cards open in my face. "We are from the FBI Taskforce on Terrorism," they told me. The problem was that my license plate number was recorded by some private security force (not the RR police) and forwarded to the FBI. They looked up my name and paid me a visit.

I explained myself by showing them some of the RR pictures on my computer. I also showed them some of the railfan sites where people post RR photos. These FBI guys had never heard of the railfan hobby. After a while, after writing down my story, they were satisfied and left.

But now my name is down *permanently* on the FBI logs. It will *never* go away. If I happen to be stopped or detained again, they have the ability to compare those records. It is not a good feeling.

So my strategy is to avoid railfanning. To get good photographs, you almost always have to tresspass a little. Just move onto the RR property about 100 feet or so, take your shot, and quickly leave. That's the way I've always done it and very few people ever cared (why should they?). But now such activity can be *very* dangerous and the whole railfanning scene is no longer worhtwhile to me.

[sd70accsxt700]

Oh and this is not a one time thing either. Any one rember the meet in Deshler, the night I tried to call in the 20 handbrakes on the scrap gons. Another glaring example of CSX's finest. NOT.

You've gotten a different experience then mine. I was travelling down US 6 near Wellsboro one morning. Watched the gates go up on an EB train in the middle of the train. Called in the crossing, and within minutes the dispatcher was giving out 'stop and flag' orders.

Called in another crossing here in Indianapolis. I was just 'passing by' and didn't get the crossing ID number. Just gave the guy the street name, and he tracked it down. I didn't know the MP designation right off hand, as I'd never seen one given out on this particular industrial track. They got it reported correctly, despite my lack of information.

Practice Safe CSX

Yea I tried calling in defective gates also, one time (as per the rules). Dude on the end of the phone would not even talk to me unless I had the USDOT number for the crossing. I told him well then hope no one gets hit, and hung up.

[J T]

So my strategy is to avoid railfanning. To get good photographs, you almost always have to tresspass a little. Just move onto the RR property about 100 feet or so, take your shot, and quickly leave. That's the way I've always done it and very few people ever cared (why should they?). But now such activity can be *very* dangerous and the whole railfanning scene is no longer worhtwhile to me.

Do what I do and shoot in the country; no one ever bothers you.

[azimmer]

Do what I do and shoot in the country; no one ever bothers you.

That is true. Except, for me, the country is a long distance away. In the city (Detroit) I can check out all the hot spots in less than hour. To do the same in the country would require most of the day and several tanks of gas ($$$).

But, to return to the spirit if this thread, individual action is not going to accomplish anything. What railfans need is an organization at the national level similar to the National Rifle Association or other such group. A national organization could lobby Congress and promote photographer's rights.

How many railfans could stay serious about such an organization? It would require a charter, legal representaion, and, of course, a way to raise funds, including membership dues.

Only such a national organization could put pressure on the railroads and the lawmakers. An individual railfan would not have a chance, in spite of his inalienable rights.

[Y@]

Oh and this is not a one time thing either. Any one rember the meet in Deshler, the night I tried to call in the 20 handbrakes on the scrap gons. Another glaring example of CSX's finest. NOT.

Yep, I was there and remember it fondly.

[trnwatcher]

The problem with Judd St is there is no real defined CSX Property. If you go by their signs they've posted around Wyoming Yard you are on other parties property alomsot half the time. If you stay off the right or way especially off the tracks, you usually are safe. There have been some "railfans" around Judd St in the last several months that think they can walk down the service track or the main and they will be OK. Once you've crossed that line where you are tresspassing you are likely to be arrested. I've seen railfans climbing on equipment around Wyoming Yard and bring back souveniers from their little jaunt down to the overhead walk bridge. The Wyoming Police where waiting for them at the end of Burlingame. When I drove by they where both spread eagle against the cruiser with their stash of goodies on the ground being photographed by the WPD and CSX. Stay off RR property and they can not do anything to you especially if you are on a public street like the end of Judd is.

[hoborich]

That is all well and good. But they can and will still harass you on a public street near the tracks. As I said in an earlier post, they pretty much do as they please, and you have little recourse. And a lot of them don't like railfans. I'm not saying they are all bad. But you don't know until it's too late. They are not municipal cops, and they are not there to protect and serve the public. They are hired guns for a corporation, with police powers, and apparently accountable to no one.
I will never tell a rail cop again that I'm watching trains. That puts me in his area of concern. As soon as one appears, I'll whip out the cellphone. "Yes officer. I pulled over to be safe making a cellphone call. I don't drive and talk on the phone. This is a public street, and I'm conducting myself in a lawful manner. Is there a problem for the railroad"?

[hobojim]

Great idea hoborich. Sometimes the best course of action is to first of all, be legal in what you are doing, and then play their silly-a**** game.

What I really find truely amazing is the difference that RRs taken concerning the subject of railfan photography, what CSX does compared to what BNSF has does in enlisting the eyes and ears of the railfans as allies to the point of issuing ID cards.

[justalurker66]

I will never tell a rail cop again that I'm watching trains. That puts me in his area of concern. As soon as one appears, I'll whip out the cellphone. "Yes officer. I pulled over to be safe making a cellphone call. I don't drive and talk on the phone. This is a public street, and I'm conducting myself in a lawful manner. Is there a problem for the railroad"?

Lying to an officer? Not a good thing.

BTW: I was questioned once for making a phone call. Yep. I pulled over into a gravel lot used by semi trucks just off of a state highway in a rural town ... more than 20 ft from the road edge but away from all of the trucks present. The officer (not a railroad cop) wanted to know why I was there. Just making a phone call. I suppose that counts as suspicious behavior compared to the 99.9% of drivers who never stop and still use their phones.

My railroad officer conversation took place in a station parking lot. Took a picture of a switch and the officer was concerned I was taking a picture of the signalling cabinet behind it. I still don't understand that one. Why would a signalling cabinet be more sensitive to photograph than a switch? Told the truth ... continued taking pictures.

And on the thought of a "flash mob" or "mass railfan meet" on disputed land: I was in Niles for SP 4449 last year --- when hundreds turn out there and along the line even real trespassing gets ignored. City cops were keeping people away from the center platform but the Amtrak yard there was full of railfans ... in an area that would clearly be trespassing on another day - or even later that day. There is strength in numbers.

I have considered getting a SD card for my camera that would upload my photos as taken. So far I just do daily maintenance. Every photo taken comes off of the card at the end of the day so I would not lose more than today's photos.

[tsinoms]

Honestly if you are on public property at judd there should have been no problem. If I'm in that situation, if they call the cops and i'm on a street the cop will see that I'm on a public right of way doing nothing malicious to the railroad. I swear rent a cops are jokes. Sometimes I wonder if they run around yelling at people because they are worried their boss are watching.
Also Matt, being an employee of CSX, have you heard anything to confirm that there is a photo policy on CSX?

[pudgy]

I thought the CSX Cop stationed at GR was removed shortly after the Intermodal Traffic dropped back out of the system?

[sd70accsxt700]

No photo policy that I know of. Just supposed to do the usual stuff, call in people trespassing, acting suspicous, ect.

[Norm]

What is the structure directly across the tracks from the end of Judd St? It looks to be occupied because in the Bing Maps photo there are two cars parked beside it. That could be where the reports of railfans are coming from.

Also, in the Bing Maps photo there is a vehicle parked beyond the cul-de-sac that appears close enough to possibly be on railroad property. I would think the painted line around the cul-de-sac would define the limits of public property.

[Raildudes dad]

What is the structure directly across the tracks from the end of Judd St? It looks to be occupied because in the Bing Maps photo there are two cars parked beside it. That could be where the reports of railfans are coming from.

Also, in the Bing Maps photo there is a vehicle parked beyond the cul-de-sac that appears close enough to possibly be on railroad property. I would think the painted line around the cul-de-sac would define the limits of public property.

Use this link and zoom in on Judd Street
http://ims.gvmc-regis.org/website/publi ... arcel_Find

You will see the ROW is defined by the lumber yard fence, lots of PUBLIC highway right of way to park in

[PAT.C]

would have called the real police and had him arrested for felonious assault. The other alternative is for me to pull my own gun and defend myself.
NEXT TIME YOU SEE A RR COP -- I WOULD NOT DO AS YOU RECOMMEND.

Either way he is a real dumbazz, he could get hurt or in real trouble. Pulling a gun on someone is pretty serious and dangerous stuff.
AND BE SURE TO CALL HIM A DUMDAZZ TO HIS FACE.

DO YOU HAVE A CPL ??? IF SO, YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR COUNTY GUN BOARD READ THIS THREAD.
THEY MAY WANT TO CALL YOU IN FOR A REVIEW SINCE YOU ARE ADVOCATING PULLING A FIREARM ON A LAW OFFICER...
A VERY STUPID AND DANGEROUS STATEMENT AND IT CAN AND SHOULD BE DELETED.

EDIT/ 12:12PM
FOR THOSE STILL IN DOUBT ABOUT THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF RR POLICE,
READ THIS ARTICLE [THANKS TO TYPHOON FOR THE LINK ] ...
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/maga ... e_id=32009

[trnwatcher]

Honestly if you are on public property at judd there should have been no problem. If I'm in that situation, if they call the cops and i'm on a street the cop will see that I'm on a public right of way doing nothing malicious to the railroad. I swear rent a cops are jokes. Sometimes I wonder if they run around yelling at people because they are worried their boss are watching.
Also Matt, being an employee of CSX, have you heard anything to confirm that there is a photo policy on CSX?

First of all railroad police are just that POLICE. They have arrest powers and in the grand scheme of things one step short of being a federal marshall. Here is short statement from Wikipedia on railroad police and their authority.

--The appointment, commissioning and regulation of railroad police under Section 1704 of the U.S. Crime Control Act of 1990, provides that: "A railroad police officer who is certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of any one state shall, in accordance with the regulations issued by the U. S. Secretary of Transportation, be authorized to enforce the laws of any other state in which the rail carrier owns property."--

Secondly if you pull a gun on any law officer you will find yourself in deep trouble if not dead. If you do have a carrry permit the first thing you should always do when approached by a police officer is to inform him of the fact that you are carrying, where your weapon is and if it is loaded or not. Statiing this up front will save you from a night\weekend in jail or an eternity in a coffin.

[Crow T Robot]

Maybe I missed something along the way but if you were asked by the police because you were tresspassing simply leave if you feel you are in the right and have something showing said evidence show the officer if he still wants you gone go. If you feel your still in the right find the person in charge ask him for permission to be there get it in writing hopefully on CSX letterhead and if there is a next time present that... If that doesn't work get a collection together and buy the plot of land from the state or whoever owns it.

Or just move on and find a new location to go to for awhile. The idea of yelling/ arguing with/ pulling guns on Law Enforcement officers is about as futile as farting in a skunks face you are NOT gonna win.

[AARR]

...as farting in a skunks face you are NOT gonna win.

I will use this quote again