Developing a GREAT railroad museum

[Robert MacDowell]

I'm sick of Illinois having all the fun. I proposed a great railroad museum like Illinois Railway Museum awhile back, and people seemed to really like the idea. So I'd like to get people's opinions one more time, see what you think of the idea and whether you would get committed to it.

AARR likes to study the freight potential of lines. I like to study the success of railroad museums. study what it takes for railroad museums to succeed. It's a special interest of mine. I ABSOLUTELY believe that such a museum is realistic and achievable.

Here is what I envision. It is an operating museum that runs its trains. It owns the railroad and can run at will and won't be evicted. It is almost all-volunteer, except possibly for ticket-seller, janitor etc. Its main money source is running trains for the public so there's lots of opportunities to run. It also runs events for railfans, like Ann Arbor Days, Diesel Weekend etc. Good restoration work is done in the shop. Car-houses are a top priority so equipment is stored out of the weather. It is railfan fantasy land.

The whole thing is a non-profit organization. It's nobody's private thing. The members/volunteers elect the leadership and run things. This is a tried and tested format, used by IRM, OERM, WRM and many other successful organizations.

You've seen what places like IRM and WRM have done. I don't think it's magic. I think it's organization and planning. Money too, but planning will bring the money. I also think several locations in Michigan have a good start.

What do you think? Is this a place you'd visit? Would you be willing to work to help create a place like that? Would you want to run the trains, be conductor or trainman or engineer? Work in the restoration shop? Work on a mechanized track gang? Help in the office? Work in the library or archive? Sell tickets? And why?

[J T]

I don't think it's possible, from this day forward, to create from scratch a railroad museum like the IRM. It's a different time and place from when the IRM and other museums like it were created, and it's taken decades to grow to what they are now. And Michigan, with all its economic issues, is probably the last place you'd want to try to start one.

It's a wonderful dream, but I doubt I'd ever see something like that come to fruition in my lifetime in this state.

[12Bridge]

"The members/volunteers elect the leadership and run things. This is a tried and tested format, used by IRM, OERM, WRM and many other successful organizations. "

And used by even more museums with wicked cranial rectal inversion, mass amounts of stupidity and even more people that have no business being on a board of a non-profit, or operating organization. The reasons why IRM, WRM, OERM etc are so well off is because they are some of the early first generations of this time, they got past alot of BS early on such as land ownership and other hurdles.

In simple terms, Your not going to just "Create" a museum like this in a year. The chances of another organization growing to this scale, maybe, but not in this era will this happen. Ill eat a fedora when it does.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Rather than paying the ticket-sellers, janitors, etc., in your scenario it may be better to consider a full-time director who can coordinate the various activities (including fundraising!) of the organization.

Also, as great as IRM is, they don't have that much trackage, just enough to give you a taste of what their equipment can do. What you're describing would require several miles of track to accomplish. I would think that HVRM's (Hoosier Valley, North Judson, Indiana) setup would be better than having the museum own all of the track.

[Robert MacDowell]

And used by even more museums with wicked cranial rectal inversion, mass amounts of stupidity and even more people that have no business being on a board of a non-profit, or operating organization. The reasons why IRM, WRM, OERM etc are so well off is because they are some of the early first generations of this time, they got past alot of BS early on such as land ownership and other hurdles.

All true. But on the other hand, Ohio Railway Museum is also a first-generation museum, and they're even worse-off than the young museums. Back in the 1960s, the other museums went 50 miles out of town and bought 20 acres of land. Ohio already had 3 acres of land in Worthington and decided to stay put. They were a great museum at the time, and then they faded to what they are today. Which hasn't changed since the 1980s, except the rust.

The other thing is -- the first generation had no one to follow. We do. We can follow them!!! 60 years of expensive mistakes we don't have to remake. As an example, IRM and Seashore bought land right next to abandoned grades they bought and had to relay rail. Niles Canyon Railway doesn't even own the grade they are relaying! OERM doesn't have much of a ride because they didn't buy it when they could. Calif. State RRM borrowed the former SP backshops, and never built their own proper shop, now, they're outta luck. WRM bought land next to someone else's railroad and then fell in the happy-ending machine.

To say nothing of all the museums that don't even own their railroad. Noblesville Indiana. Niles Canyon. Little River. 1225. What happens when the owner finds them inconvenient? What if GLC is told they have to install positive train control to host 1225? You gotta own your railroad.

Another expensive mistake is building car-houses too late. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2919037455/
The majors build car-houses 4-6 tracks and 300-600 feet long, because that's cheapest per car. You look at all the museums that own railroads but not land, and everything is stuffed into sidings. You can't build a car-house over a siding, what are you going to do, build a 14 foot wide carbarn 2000 feet long? You need serious land.

That gives a very clear marching order. 1. Buy your railroad. 2. Buy land next to your railroad. 3. Build car-houses ASAP on your land. We don't need 50 years to learn those lessons. It's already been done.

That's just one example of a subject area. There are lessons to be learned in every area, and all we have to do is show up at an ARM convention, ask and listen.

Back to your comment about Boards, there's clearly a learning curve here that every organization has to go through. I'm hoping, betting, that this doesn't have to take 50 years. If so, there'll be nothing left in Michigan to preserve except SD70s.

In simple terms, Your not going to just "Create" a museum like this in a year. The chances of another organization growing to this scale, maybe, but not in this era will this happen. Ill eat a fedora when it does.

An existing organization definitely has a better shot, I agree. The question is WHO, and whether they want to. I have a notion, but I want to hear your opinions.

[Typhoon]

Also, as great as IRM is, they don't have that much trackage, just enough to give you a taste of what their equipment can do. What you're describing would require several miles of track to accomplish. I would think that HVRM's (Hoosier Valley, North Judson, Indiana) setup would be better than having the museum own all of the track.

I am not sure what you would describe as THAT much trackage, but IRM's mainline is 4.5 miles, which is a lot to maintain for a volunteer workforce. That being said, in my mind the IRM setup is much better than what the crew in North Judson have. If the CKIN ever changes ownership it is very possible that the Hoosier Valley would become a museum without a mainline, which would not be a good situation.

[TrainWatcher]

We have a museum like that already, its called the Henry Ford. They own their own ROW, have locomotives and rolling stock, and make a pretty good killing at ticket pricing. They also have historic buildings (Wright Bicycle Shop, Edison's Lab, etc) so that non-railfans can also enjoy the property of being back in time. Now, besides the few people that I have knowledge of over there, they are not railfan oriented as as TVRM or IRM, but they put on a good show all the same. The restoration old D&LN 0-4-0 #7 will add that to the collections of Edison and Calumet and Hecla #3 "Torch Lake". How many places can you go now and see 2 operational 0-4-0's and a Heisler? IRM is devoted to diesels. (primarily CNW, but they also have the ATSF FP45 [which word has it should be coming back out of the shop this year], and all the electric cars you can think of.)

You don't have land out here to build a museum. Heck, from the understanding I have is NS is only going to deliver coal by railcar occasionally (ie 2-3 cars and by a local out of Oakwood). And you also have SRI in Owosso, SMRS in Lenawee, the Michigan Transit Museum, the Huckleberry Railroad... there are plenty of museums. Now for example with SMRS they have an Annie RS2. Now THAT would be worth sinking money into and getting her back out on the mainline and not trapped on that small cut of track she's on. If your going to start a movement for museums, maybe there needs to be made a list of what museums need help with equipment and trackage and get them squared away first.

I'd be more that willing to spend a few hours working on a relic at a current museum then parade all over Michigan trying to find land and get permits and messing with tree huggers and the EPA.

[Clay320]

Now for example with SMRS they have an Annie RS2. Now THAT would be worth sinking money into and getting her back out on the mainline and not trapped on that small cut of track she's on

RS1 actually. She's on the evergrowing list of things to work on at SMR.

[Steve B]

This discussion is all hypothetical, but a good mental exercise.

Should we continue to put resources into the struggling museums we already have, and also attempt to raise money for a brand-new place?

Or, should we close most of them and put the resources in one or two new or rebuilt bigger, stronger institutions?

Echoing what MKT_fan11 said, a full-time, paid director with experience in fund-raising and/or running an organization is a must. Maybe it wouldn't be possible to pay him or her right away, but it should be a goal. In addition, I wouldn't limit myself to all volunteers for the rest of the staff. As funds permit, more staff would be paid. To get large numbers of the public to show up you need professional paid staff there all day, every day rain or shine. Not the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of each month from 11 AM to 3 PM, minus lunchbreak. So that would be a *goal,* even if wouldn't necessarily happen right away.

[12Bridge]

I never said ALL first generation museums were successful.

You go out and price 20 acres of land right now and see what it costs to run power, sewer, water and everything else there. Owning a railroad opens up an entire other ball game of issues in there own right. Who is going to take care of it? Who deals with the FRA? Who is going to be your suppler for materials. The non-profit thing only goes so far.

"That gives a very clear marching order. 1. Buy your railroad. 2. Buy land next to your railroad. 3. Build car-houses ASAP on your land. We don't need 50 years to learn those lessons. It's already been done."

Im pretty sure Jerry Joe Jacobson figured this out, why dont you see what it cost him.

"Back to your comment about Boards, there's clearly a learning curve here that every organization has to go through. I'm hoping, betting, that this doesn't have to take 50 years. If so, there'll be nothing left in Michigan to preserve except SD70s."

Ever deal with, or sit on a board of directors for a non profit?

Theres many, many failing museums that need the help more then we need another organization, big time. Things are getting scrapped at an increasing rate because nobody wants to work on them, cant afford them, etc. Its only going to get much worse. I think its much better to work on this issue and help another group grow first. How much does IRM have on the back lot that needs help? Anyone start fundraising for the D&M RS2 yet?

Oh, and here is another reality check.
http://www.railwaymuseums.org/Static/do ... sfinal.pdf

[Clay320]

Oh, and here is another reality check.
http://www.railwaymuseums.org/Static/do ... sfinal.pdf

Cool link, really spells it all out. Not a lot of people realize what all goes into doing stuff right.

[hobojim]

Excellent link, 12bridge, everyone who posted on this subject should read it in order to get a true perspective of restoration.

[Norm]

I don't think it's possible, from this day forward, to create from scratch a railroad museum like the IRM. .

It's a wonderful dream, but I doubt I'd ever see something like that come to fruition in my lifetime in this state.

J.T.,

I won't say it's impossible in this day and age, but your comment on Michigan's economy is worthy of merit. Starting a museum with it's own trackage would cost mega-bucks. The only reason Huckleberry Railroad runs is because it is captive and owned by Genessee Parks and Rec.

After reading the PDF, and seeing all the hoops that would have to be jumped through, I can see where it would become a very expensive venture. Fund raising is problematic in poor economic times, and even cosmetic restorations can consume big bucks.

A very good question arose regarding GLC being forced into PTC. Could that eliminate the possibility of 1225 running on their tracks? If so, that would relegate SRI to static displays on their own property.

Sad to say there are too many regulations in the way, although some of them are designed to protect the public,

[Robert MacDowell]

Ever deal with, or sit on a board of directors for a non profit?

Yes sir, the Western Railway Museum and the Southern Michigan Railroad, though I never missed a board meeting at any place I volunteered. WRM is a very mature board and until recently the chairman was Cameron Beach, who was very, very good at leading boards. You have to raise your hand to talk because there are so many people who want to speak. Many votes go 5-4 or 6-3. Despite this, meetings only run about 2 hours because they focus on "big head" stuff and leave management to management. I have also returned to the SMRS board, and without being too harsh, it is not the same as the WRM board. That's just the learning curve, I don't have a big problem with it.

How about you?

[Theres many, many failing museums that need the help more then we need another organization, big time. Things are getting scrapped at an increasing rate because nobody wants to work on them, cant afford them, etc. Its only going to get much worse. I think its much better to work on this issue and help another group grow first. How much does IRM have on the back lot that needs help? Anyone start fundraising for the D&M RS2 yet?

And where will the RS2 go??? A museum worthy of it, I hope.
But yes. I agree completely that this will work better helping existing organizations advance, since they already have a ahead-start. I agree, we don't have time to spend 50 years evolving another IRM, because the museums are failing today and stuff is being offered today. We have to be smarter than that, and we have to work with what we got.

Oh, and here is another reality check.
http://www.railwaymuseums.org/Static/do ... sfinal.pdf

SCARE TACTICS. Here's your reality check back, with interest
http://www.wolfharper.com/rail/pres/cct3001.html
http://www.wrm.org/projects/shop/archive.html
BEFORE http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/holman.html
AFTER http://sn1005.blogspot.com/

WRM does this kind of thing all the time. We deliver top drawer restorations that wind up on the cover of TrainLine at the rate of about 1 a year. I linked a few above. This guy is trying to scare people into hiring him. No thanks, railway preservation is full of those clowns, and they don't deliver. The guy says himself he doesn't want to work with volunteers, he calls 200 green volunteers "useless". I call it restoration school.

Without volunteers, how are you going to get it done? You're not. There is no magic fountain of money. Doesn't exist and we do fine without it. Successful projects run on volunteers who love learning new things and doing excellent work. That's what it's all about. That's how you get the work done and that's why volunteers come back. Yes, the project manager and Board have to worry about skill and scope. No, you should not allow Joe Newbie to take on a project beyond his ability. Outside of that, chill out. It's not that big a deal. Start small, deliver achievable projects, expand your skills and project size. As you show your ability and earn the trust of donors, the money you need will be there. Too many people try to skip steps here, and it doesn't work.

[12Bridge]

How about you?

Yes, I have, for 4 very long years. I don't want to say which right now, but those who know me on here can back me up on it. I have been to enough board meetings that lasted 4-8 (yes, hour meetings full of moronic comments, paper airplanes and general stupidity, all the while trying to get something accomplished.

Several people recently left one of the groups I was formerly associated with due to the boards decisions (MRing vs. 1:1 equipment outside) and there now frantically trying to make it look like they have done something. The brings into the entire separation of these two things...which is another discussion for another day.

SCARE TACTICS.

No, reality. Some of those figures are spot on. Im not saying I agree with everything in there, but the majority is true. Im not saying some groups (IRM for one, and many others) can not do this, many have proven themselves time and time again with restoration projects like you show above. But this is more for Joe Public, who has no idea what is involved in a locomotive restoration, and those who think everything needs to be saved. It takes alot of skill to maintain a locomotive, brake system, etc.

I am not knocking volunteer labor either by any means. Once again, see some of the many sources listed above for great volunteer work. But not everything can be done voluntarily at first. Until you have a wide and diverse group of people to call upon, an average volunteer is not going to pop open an EMD manual and swap out a power assembly. Been there, Done that.

This sir, is by far o ne of the best quotes on RR preservation I have ever seen. Have a cookie.

"Start small, deliver achievable projects, expand your skills and project size. As you show your ability and earn the trust of donors, the money you need will be there. Too many people try to skip steps here, and it doesn't work."

Way, way to many organizations get in over there head because of a lack of said volunteers and skills, and we wind up with another scrapyard situation. I have seen it first hand.

Not trying to argue here at all, just putting down my experiences like yourself. Alot of people don't see it from the inside..just "WE NEED TO SAVE XXX AND SEND IT HERE!.."

[Typhoon]

We IRM is devoted to diesels. (primarily CNW, but they also have the ATSF FP45 [which word has it should be coming back out of the shop this year], and all the electric cars you can think of.)

Not wanting to get to far off topic, but have you ever been to IRM? According to IRM's website, they have a total of 45 diesels, with 4 of those being owned by the CNW. Not really "primarily". They also have 25 steam locomotives, and according to the IRM yahoo group, both the SLSF 1630 and the Shay are supposed to be running this summer.

Back on topic. I don't really think it is possible to open a large museum in the social environment that we live in. You would have to go really far outside of the city to get the amount of land needed and keeping the NIMBY complaints and possible vandalism down. However being that far out would hurt attendance with $4 a gallon gas coming, which is the catch 22.

What equipment would you want to preserve? Starting with nothing could really be an issue these days. Established museums were lucky enough to be around when railroads were ending passenger service, which permitted them to get there hands on passenger cars on the cheap. There is not a huge pool of equipment looking for a home, with almost no open air equipment available. Having spent too much time on sealed equipment with malfunctioning air conditioning, to me open air equipment is a must for your everyday train.

Do you have a large group of people to volunteer their time? I am sure finding people to come out and operate the equipment during the weekend will not be that big of an issue, as that is the "sexy" park of the job. However can you find people that will come out and restore the equipment? People to come out during the weel and maintain the trackage, the signal system, and the grounds? Someone to set up a rules program, and test the operators?

This is just scratching the surface of things to look at, and I just do see it ever getting off the ground.

[Robert MacDowell]

How about you?

Yes, I have, for 4 very long years. I don't want to say which right now, but those who know me on here can back me up on it. I have been to enough board meetings that lasted 4-8 (yes, hour meetings full of moronic comments, paper airplanes and general stupidity, all the while trying to get something accomplished.

Nah, you sound like a guy who's been on a board, all right

SCARE TACTICS.

No, reality. Some of those figures are spot on. Im not saying I agree with everything in there, but the majority is true. Im not saying some groups (IRM for one, and many others) can not do this, many have proven themselves time and time again with restoration projects like you show above. But this is more for Joe Public, who has no idea what is involved in a locomotive restoration, and those who think everything needs to be saved.

If Joe Public will pay for the carbarn space it'll take, I'm fine with it. Not everything needs to be restored. IRM pole barns cost $250/track foot. The gold plated WRM jobs with sprinklers are $700. You never know who'll walk in your door next week, might be a skilled fundraiser with a Pere Marquette fixation.

If Joe Foamer wants to lead the charge restoring it, then yeah - it's time to whip out that powerpoint stack as part of the training for a project manager, to stop him from leaving you a half finished project in pieces.

My concern is these numbers, while accurate in the context of a top museum doing top work... are misleading when used to describe the financial needs of a startup railroad museum. Sure, a top shelf diesel restoration costs $200k, but no startup museum is ever going to do that, so it's a fantasy number. As if a starving student is going to spend $500 on an iPad when a $1 notepad will do. The fantasy number gets tossed in the ammo-box of the naysayers to shoot down anyone who dares to dream.

[GP9R]

My 2 Cents, I think TVRM has it figured out. Nice amount of track to run their stuff on. AND they have a Terminal RR that lets them use that track.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

What equipment would you want to preserve? Starting with nothing could really be an issue these days. Established museums were lucky enough to be around when railroads were ending passenger service, which permitted them to get there hands on passenger cars on the cheap. There is not a huge pool of equipment looking for a home, with almost no open air equipment available. Having spent too much time on sealed equipment with malfunctioning air conditioning, to me open air equipment is a must for your everyday train.

Do you have a large group of people to volunteer their time? I am sure finding people to come out and operate the equipment during the weekend will not be that big of an issue, as that is the "sexy" park of the job. However can you find people that will come out and restore the equipment? People to come out during the weel and maintain the trackage, the signal system, and the grounds? Someone to set up a rules program, and test the operators?

This is just scratching the surface of things to look at, and I just do see it ever getting off the ground.

If an organization were to be established for the purpose of museum ownership of track, etc., for the sake of discussion, why not either start out by acquiring unwanted equipment from those established groups who have too much stuff and not enough ability to maintain let alone restore everything. While there are several groups who wouldn't sell any of their "stuff" just because it's theirs, it seems like there should be a group here or there with enough sense to realize they can't save everything in their collection and by letting some things go that aren't relevant or in line with the main goal of their organization they can focus their attention and energy on those pieces that really are important to their organization. If your organization is dead set on putting up enough shelter to house a large collection, you may be able to take in money by storing equipment for organizations who do not have the ability to provide shelter for their equipment, or at least initially boost your equipment display numbers and thus increase your attraction to potential visitors.

As far as finding equipment to run a regular train with, if the goal is open air equipment, why not find a couple used gondolas or flat cars and make the necessary improvements to use them as passenger cars? Yes that will require a significant investment, especially in terms of approved seats, approved car sides and probably a roof system of some sort, but I would think it would be cheaper (and faster) than trying to acquire ready to run or almost ready-to-run cars from outside sources.

I'm probably wrong, but I would be a bit surprised if the goal of starting a new museum organization, especially one organized with the goal of running on its own track, wouldn't start out by working to preserve and restore equipment already saved from the torch (for the time being) that may be deteriorating for want of funds, lack of attention or even to provide a home for collections that may be homeless. Speaking of which, the last I heard the Bluewater NRHS had lost its home in Saginaw. Did they ever find a new home for their equipment? I'm sure there are other groups with equipment who would like to find a more permanent place to store their equipment as well who would be potential partners for such a project.

Strange as it may sound, if I were part of an organization like this, I'd much rather contribute to the maintenance of the physical plant (track, signals, grounds) than be part of the weekend operating crew (the "sexy" jobs). In my experience, even though there aren't as many people willing to do those jobs, there are people willing to do them if you know where to look. I'm currently part of an organization that has a regular group who show up and perform the not-so-glamorous work on a regular basis (supposed to be every other week, turned into every week last fall). We don't have a whole lot of money to work with, but we are making noticeable progress on our primary restoration project (mostly cosmetic improvements, but those are the ones we need to maintain morale right now). Granted, we are not an operating organization, nor do I believe that to be a goal of the organization's leadership, but we're also quite young compared to the really old organizations like IRM or SRI. This thread though has been really interesting to me so far because of the organization I belong to and the things I see in our organization that are both similar and different from other organizations as well as the potential and obstacles that would be faced by a new organization trying to start out from the ground up.

[GP9R]

What equipment would you want to preserve? Starting with nothing could really be an issue these days. Established museums were lucky enough to be around when railroads were ending passenger service, which permitted them to get there hands on passenger cars on the cheap. There is not a huge pool of equipment looking for a home, with almost no open air equipment available. Having spent too much time on sealed equipment with malfunctioning air conditioning, to me open air equipment is a must for your everyday train.

Do you have a large group of people to volunteer their time? I am sure finding people to come out and operate the equipment during the weekend will not be that big of an issue, as that is the "sexy" park of the job. However can you find people that will come out and restore the equipment? People to come out during the weel and maintain the trackage, the signal system, and the grounds? Someone to set up a rules program, and test the operators?

This is just scratching the surface of things to look at, and I just do see it ever getting off the ground.

Strange as it may sound, if I were part of an organization like this, I'd much rather contribute to the maintenance of the physical plant (track, signals, grounds) than be part of the weekend operating crew (the "sexy" jobs). In my experience, even though there aren't as many people willing to do those jobs, there are people willing to do them if you know where to look. I'm currently part of an organization that has a regular group who show up and perform the not-so-glamorous work on a regular basis (supposed to be every other week, turned into every week last fall). We don't have a whole lot of money to work with, but we are making noticeable progress on our primary restoration project (mostly cosmetic improvements, but those are the ones we need to maintain morale right now). Granted, we are not an operating organization, nor do I believe that to be a goal of the organization's leadership, but we're also quite young compared to the really old organizations like IRM or SRI. This thread though has been really interesting to me so far because of the organization I belong to and the things I see in our organization that are both similar and different from other organizations as well as the potential and obstacles that would be faced by a new organization trying to start out from the ground up.

You aren't alone in this, as a professional conductor the last thing I want to do on my few days off is go play conductor. This summer I'm looking forward to doing some other things not related to the movement of trains. I like to do mechanical work but because I work for a union RR, I'm not allowed(or properly trained as far the company goes) to do anything.