Developing a GREAT railroad museum

[SD80MAC]

That's always been an issue out at C&M and other passenger hauling shortlines like us. You have a bunch of people who want to run the trains (although even that department has been thin lately) and only a small group that actually work on the equipment and track. Without good volunteers who put in the time to do jobs right, we're just rust, as our GM often says.

[Typhoon]

As far as finding equipment to run a regular train with, if the goal is open air equipment, why not find a couple used gondolas or flat cars and make the necessary improvements to use them as passenger cars? Yes that will require a significant investment, especially in terms of approved seats, approved car sides and probably a roof system of some sort, but I would think it would be cheaper (and faster) than trying to acquire ready to run or almost ready-to-run cars from outside sources.

Having seats in a gondola or flat car makes you more of a tourist line, not really a museum.

[SD80MAC]

Also make sure your engine doesn't spit oil or you'll have a lot of unhappy open car riders!

[Clay320]

As far as finding equipment to run a regular train with, if the goal is open air equipment, why not find a couple used gondolas or flat cars and make the necessary improvements to use them as passenger cars? Yes that will require a significant investment, especially in terms of approved seats, approved car sides and probably a roof system of some sort, but I would think it would be cheaper (and faster) than trying to acquire ready to run or almost ready-to-run cars from outside sources.

Having seats in a gondola or flat car makes you more of a tourist line, not really a museum.

True, but people love them. The gon we have at SMRS is very popular among riders, several times people have told us when making reservations that they wouldn't come out if they couldn't get a guaranteed seat in the open car. On the other hand, one drop of rain and everyone makes a run for the coach .

[J T]

The gon we have at SMRS is very popular among riders, several times people have told us when making reservations that they wouldn't come out if they couldn't get a guaranteed seat in the open car. On the other hand, one drop of rain and everyone makes a run for the coach .

Not one single person in the gon on this day.

[Clay320]

@JT, haha you got me.

Come back in October and get a picture or two. This past fall for Fall Color Tours we were averaging over 100 riders per trip on the weekends. Plenty in the gon then.

[Robert MacDowell]

A lot of rail museums have those. Most are built up from flatcars, with wood side railings and usually, canopies and canvas roofs. At the Cass Scenic, that's most of their fleet! I agree they are not historic in the least, but it cannot be denied people love them. Of all the museums I've seen, the car I like the most is the SMRS gondola. It is a pipe gon with removable ends, so only minimal modifications were needed - it still looks like a pipe gon and could be painted historic and look reasonable. And it's 65 feet so it seats a lot of folks comfortably. Those converted 40 foot flatcars only seat about 35 if really crammed.

Many museums are getting rid of excess equipment. "De-accession" has become all the rage, there was even a TRAINS magazine article about simplifying collections. Supply greatly outstrips demand so there are few takers and a lot gets cut up. I also believe many museums can be talked out of stock they aren't really doing anything with. It's one heck of a selling point to say "Better in our carbarn, than under your snow" especially if it's a Michigan piece.

Open window coaches: there's also a glut of them but they are not necessarily in good shape. Nothing unfixable, but scary to a novice. There are like 150 surviving Lackawanna coaches, and we keep finding more, I just found one that wasn't on Frank Hicks's list. Clearly, they are breeding A lot of the tourist lines, and some museums, have switched to HEP and sealed window A/C coaches (yeah, I know, no thanks!!!) and they seem to be sidelining their older stock rather than converting it to HEP. A lot is just sitting in the back 40 rusting.

It's crazy. You know that powerpoint deck which complains about noobs diving into a million dollar steam engine restoration. These same noobs will snub a distressed passenger coach that are actually capable of restoring for a few grand. It's crazy. Everybody saves engines, nobody saves coaches, and then they wonder why their steam engine just sits in the barn burning tube time.

Bluewater had the right idea: save coaches and you are the most popular guy in town. Oh, their stuff mostly went to TVRM. What a strange outfit. They are a freight terminal railroad that also runs several tourist line ventures. And these are wrapped in the cloak of a nonprofit museum. Must have an interesting tax structure.

Track maintenance is a bugbear unless you get the formula right. If your volunteers are swinging hand tools, the limit of track maintenance is human endurance and burnout. However, if your track gang is mechanized with a compressor, a $5000 spiker, $15,000 tie inserter and $20,000 tamper -- there is no practical limit except materials. WRM's 4-man track crew inserts 100 ties on a typical Saturday, including spiking and tamping. Every year your track looks better and burnout is less of an issue.

[GrandTrunkFan]

That's always been an issue out at C&M and other passenger hauling shortlines like us. You have a bunch of people who want to run the trains (although even that department has been thin lately) and only a small group that actually work on the equipment and track. Without good volunteers who put in the time to do jobs right, we're just rust, as our GM often says.

I think the Coopersville and Marne has a good start to become a good museum/tourist railroad. Were pretty solid when it comes to the tourist part, and constantly working on projects to improve our equipment. My participation isnt what it used to be out there, but I still lend my time and energy when I can to improve the equipment and track in some cases. I always try to stay up to date on whats going on out there. Its a wonderful operation to be a part of. Our ticket sales is what dictates what we spend money to work on. We have our own track, and plenty of it to run our equipment on.

[bctrainfan]

Seems like helping an established outfit like C&M might be the best way. They have already jumped through alot of hoops to get where they're at, if you're interested in preservation/restoration/operation, wouldn't helping an existing organization like that be the best use of your time, effort, & money? Getting started from scratch is obviously no simple, quick, project. Even with a big wad of cash and a busload or two of dedicated volunteers, how long will it take to be operating a railroad? A year? two? Longer? First you have to get through all the legal and organizational hoops, goverment regulations, permits, liability insurance (thats the biggest killer of volunteer nonprofits IMHO). Aquire property, usable trackage, engines, rolling stock, suitable buildings, all while maintaining the interest of volunteers and donors who mainly want be part of running trains.

Again, I am sure that oranizations like C&M and others, that have already gotten thru the birthing pains, are more than welcoming to new, gung-ho, dedicated volunteers and also those that just want to help the cause with their donations. And you would be able to enjoy some of the fruits of your labor right away.

[J T]

@JT, haha you got me.

Come back in October and get a picture or two. This past fall for Fall Color Tours we were averaging over 100 riders per trip on the weekends. Plenty in the gon then.

Ok, ok...I admit, that was a slow day. I don't think there are even a half dozen people in the first car.

But anyway, I'd love to go back there in the fall, but it's just so far away. Fun line to chase and photograph, though! Keep up the good work.

[AARR]

Seems like helping an established outfit like C&M might be the best way.

Very interesting thread! BC's comment is the one that makses the most sense to me. Seems you have to have some very deep pockets and resources to start a museum from scratch in the current economy when donations are down. But supporting an existing group who shares your ideas is the fastest way to get to your goal.

[hoborich]

If the existing museums are struggling, why would a new one do any better?

[Robert MacDowell]

Very interesting thread! BC's comment is the one that makses the most sense to me. Seems you have to have some very deep pockets and resources to start a museum from scratch in the current economy when donations are down. But supporting an existing group who shares your ideas is the fastest way to get to your goal.

Yup, yup, yup. Even if you had the deep pockets, you couldn't go "la la la, I'm going to start a railroad museum today" because a suitable location hardly ever comes on the market. You better be ready right then. Who can afford to have $2 million sitting in an endowment And how far will your money go? Not far when you have to spend most of it doubling what the existing museums already have.

Just for completeness' sake I would like to also mention the Toledo Lake Erie & Western (Bluebird) - also a nonprofit, also own their own railroad. There is an unfinished small car-house and shop at their west end, but I don't think it's theirs. They're in Ohio, but nobody's perfect

Also Michigan Transit Museum. They own about 1.3 miles of track in Mount Clemens, and they used to go into Selfridge air base which isn't possible now. Unless they think the base will become usable again, they gotta get out of there. Somebody was saying how a grand museum could be a "refuge" for other museums... trolley loop

ObDisclaimer, I'm a life member of MTM, 25 year member of SMRS and on the board, occasional member of 1225 and Ford, haven't figured out how to join C&M or the bluebird.

[Dan M]

The Selfridge connection is probably gone for good. I know the MTM complemented the Selfridge Air Museum and that reciprocated back to MTM. The base in its security wisdom decided to cancel the MTM's operations a few years after 9/11. Currently the base has cut and removed rails from many road way crossings on base. My guess is that the MTM will probably never return to operate on the base in the near future. All jet fuel and other fuels are trucked in and it will be a matter of time before the rail is scrapped on the east side of the base I guess.

MTM lost a lot of their attraction for riders when they could not get on the base to the Museum. Col Lou Nigro (the museum director) misses the people that the train brought into his museum. But these are only small factors that hurt many of the museum and historical societies across the state with an economy as bad as it is. Leadership, organizational politics, membership participation and having volunteers follow through on commitments also are problematic. You could have deep pockets and have mismanagement and be worse off than a well run organization on an extremely small budget.

Dan

[Raildudes dad]

This has been an interesting thread. In my humble opinion, there are too few people trying to save too much with too little funds. Someone mentioned the Henry Ford Museum. While I’m sure they need to watch their budget, I’m sure they don’t depend on gate admissions to keep the doors open. I don’t know for sure but I’m pretty sure the Ford family or maybe old Henry himself left the museum a very large endowment fund. They have plenty of staff and a very nice facility.

Huckleberry RR was mentioned. I looked at the Genesee County budget and it appears they are just one component of Crossroads Park. I couldn’t tell if they were self-sufficient on fares but they certainly benefit from being a part of the county parks department. They have some full time staff and a nice shop and engine facility.

The rest of the operations in MI all struggle. “Saving” RR equipment costs lots of money. I’ve been known to say “there’s nothing cheap when it comes to railroading”.

Most of today’s parents have never ridden a train. Their grandparents may not have ridden a train. Today’s kids not only have not ridden a train but they are hooked on fast action video games. Anyone that thinks they are going to operate a tourist railroad or a museum on admission fares, I’m afraid will be disappointed.

I ran a tourist railroad for a few years. The only way to fill a train (hopefully many trains) is to offer entertainment ie Great Train Robbery, Pumpkin Trains or Murder Mysteries. But I can guarantee the fares will about cover your expenses but that’s about it. I call it operating “cash starved”.

Then there’s keeping the railroad running. Car repairs, track repairs, locomotive maintenance, those 3 are never ending. And oh, by the way, there’s no way you can hire much of it done, most of it has to be done with volunteers.
The operation I ran did not perform full restoration as described in the Powerpoint but the gentlemen’s points are well taken. We were trying to do heavy repairs and track work with a handful of volunteers one day a week. It was nothing but a struggle to keep it going. I eventually had enough of trying to run the “all-volunteer” “company” and resigned.

I do not know what the answer is. But after an 8 year “break” I’m back at it developing a track maintenance plan to maintain Class 1 track with a goal of Class 2 with all volunteer labor, 1 tie inserter, 1 tie crane, and a tamper

PS: Robert, you can join the C&M by either buying a share or two of stock and/or volunteering (the app is on line). Come on out, we’ve got 400 ties to install.