Track Authority Questions

[ConrailDetr​oit]

On a double track line that uses track authorities, signals or not, how are the trains clear through the Control Points? Would there just be signals for the crossovers?

On CN when the dispatcher says "switch yes on the main" or "switch no on the main" what does that mean?

[bnsfben]

I could be wrong, but I think the switch yes/no means whether the switch at that control point can be thrown manually by the train crew, as a part of their track authority. I really dont know though, just I thought. I am probably wrong. If they are using track authorities there would be no control points in the 'middle' of the authority area. For example on the Mt. Clemens sub, there are no control points between Nolan and South Haven, and no CP's between North Haven and Tappan. IIRC a control point is a CTC'd junction. So I don't think you can get a track authority through a control point UNLESS the CTC is down. I have seen this situation in Lapeer and I can confirm this. The CTC was down at W. Imlay City and E. Imlay City, so a eastbound had a stop signal at E. Lapeer. The dispatcher called and said "track authority number 90?? to the CN ???? at East Lapeer. X box 8(?), figure 8(?). Proceed from East Lapeer, switch no, to West Emmett switch no on the main track. This authority has one box marked, 8(?) figure 8(?)."
So that eastbound owned all the trackage between E Lapeer and W Emmett, including the control points at Imlay City.

Hope some of this helps, again I could be wrong on the first part, it's just a guess.

[Ribbon Rail]

On a double track line that uses track authorities, signals or not, how are the trains clear through the Control Points? Would there just be signals for the crossovers?

On CN when the dispatcher says "switch yes on the main" or "switch no on the main" what does that mean?

Depends which rule book you’re operating on. Some lines have interlocking rules, and the track authority doesn’t cover the territory between absolute (or “home” on NORAC) signals.

Since CN is US Operating Rules, and I’m not qualified on them, I shall digress.

[sd70accsxt700]

First off, signals are only used in signaled territory. Generaly you dont mix signals and nonsignals together, other then for a railroad crossing at grade, and that is diffrent then ABS/CPS. There are sections of dark territory that have signals, (on CSX we call them proceede blocks) but ALL they do is show track occupancy in the signal blocks, they do not GIVE authority to be in that section of track, that has to come from the dispatcher. That being said, there is no Control Point in dark territory. In dark territory, the train is controled by Track Authority-Track Warrent-Block system. In this system the dispatcher authorises a train between two points, in double track it will state what track. If the train needs to crossover permission will be given by the dispatcher as to where, when and how to crossover. Same with sidings. Will all track authorities the dispatcher will state direction and other such stuff.

In signaled territory, with the exception of the above mentioned proceede blocks, all signals GOVERN and AUTHORISE movement on the track. All switches that are at control points will have signals, all non signaled switches will have electric locks, that will not allow you to throw a switch until the surrounding signals have set to stop.

According to the CN rule book third edition,
When Track & Time includes the instruction Switch Yes, the trackage between the opposing absolute signals of the control point is included. When instructions include switch NO the authority does not include the trackage between the opposing absolute signals of the control point. It goes on to state the if switch NO then verbal authority IS required to enter limits. SO if Switch YES then train can enter limits with out authority, because the dispatchers has already given that authority, if Switch NO then train must stop at end of limits.

If you really want to get into the rules of the railroad, here is a site for rules, right out of the rule book.
http://modernrailroading.com/DigitalLib ... /index.htm

[ConrailDetr​oit]

Ok, for example if CN decided to remove signals from the Holly Sub and make it dark territory dispatched by track authorities, would there still be absolute signals at the control points? ( Moterm, Yellow Cab)

When a SB is lined up to take Main 2 Moterm to Milwaukee Jct, what indication will the SB Moterm signals display?
(North of Moterm it is bi directional CTC/ south it is ABS. SBs on Main 2 need track authorities.)

[Mr. Tops]

On UP, you can't get a signal other than red when going into a track permit. You have to get authority to pass the signal. Difference is, normally when flagged past a signal, your at restricted speed until your head end passes a more favorable signal...but when you are flagged past a red signal into your track permit, you are good for 49 mph, since the track permit is your authority and not the signal. So, to answer your question, the last signal before you enter your authority is going to be red, unless CN is defferent.

We have 38 miles of TWC territory (current of traffic - 2 mains but only signalled in one direction) DT/ABS between Ben, IL (Watseka) and Beecher, IL. On each end of it is a crossover and within those 38 miles, there are only two signals, both absolutes, both railroad crossings at grade; St. Anne (KBSR) and Momence (NS). St. Anne is an automatic interlocking (no CP), while Momence is an automatic interlocking with a release box, but there is also a crossover there, making it a CP. 49 mph max, but at both of those interlockings you have to be prepared to stop, as the signal could be red and there are no approach signals to them. Same thing with coming back up to signalled territory, even if you have a distant signal, it is still only going to be approach and the next signal (first signal governing you outside of your authority) could be red, green, or otherwise.

I'm not a wizard in this department, I just know the rules; but I would imagine if CN were to remove signals, there'd still be signals at the control points and it would be similar to what I mentioned above. They may or may not choose to leave a distant signal up for those CP's. TWC is largely for non-signalled territory, ie no signals, no control points, no power switches. But in directional traffic on multiple main territory (or anywhere, really), you can still have "signal indication", even though your authority IS your authority to occupy the track, you still have to comply with signals, unless you have track and time, which on UP, is generally only given to MofW; but also given to work trains often who are working on correspondance with those MofW crews.

Like a track authority, track and time is authority between two named spots, but now it is signalled territory, including CP's. When a train gets track and time, those signals disappear, the dispatcher cannot give you a favorable signal or any signal at all. But like an authority, track and time IS your authority to proceed, so you can do so at will passing red intermediates at 49 mph, but at CP's, you have to stop and proceed. And keep in mind ALL the signals will be red. What would normally be an absolute red signal that you'd need to get authority to pass, is now a stop and proceed, you are just stopping and then going by it without ever talking to the dipatcher. Just need to stop, making sure the switch is lined for you and then go; unless it is a railroad crossing at grade; then you may want to stop and NOT proceed until talking to the dispatcher. T&T is also used in signal system failures/outages.

[sd70accsxt700]

Ok, for example if CN decided to remove signals from the Holly Sub and make it dark territory dispatched by track authorities, would there still be absolute signals at the control points? ( Moterm, Yellow Cab)

When a SB is lined up to take Main 2 Moterm to Milwaukee Jct, what indication will the SB Moterm signals display?
(North of Moterm it is bi directional CTC/ south it is ABS. SBs on Main 2 need track authorities.)

If this was to happen I suspect that it would be a lot like the Mt. Clemens Sub. TWC with CTC Islands at passing sidings. As to answer you question if they pulled the signals, the only place you would have signals is at a diamond, and seeing there are no diamonds, it would all be dark.

Most likley like the Mt. Clemens Sub it would also have some Rule 520 tetory also (Movement on other then main track(basicly yard limits)). I would see CTC Islands at Gaines, Liden, Holly, and Andersonville, and West Pontaic to Yellow Cab.

As far as the southbound signal at Moterm, it still works like a regular signal system (I am assuming that you are asking about how it works now). The combonations could be endless depeding on how many signals are between Moterm and Milwaukee Jct, including intermedate signals. If everything is lined up and there are no trains, and there is more then three signals between the two, the they sould have a clear.

[CSX_CO]

Ok, for example if CN decided to remove signals from the Holly Sub and make it dark territory dispatched by track authorities, would there still be absolute signals at the control points? ( Moterm, Yellow Cab)

Just so you know, you need FRA permission to dactivate a signal system. So, while your scenario is interesting, its highly unlikely that the FRA would grant permission to a railroad to de-activate the signal system on it. Even the former Monon in Southern Indiana has a 'functioning' signal system despite the track being out of service. FRA has not granted CSX permission to turn those off.

Practice Safe CSX

[i995impalass]

Ok, for example if CN decided to remove signals from the Holly Sub and make it dark territory dispatched by track authorities, would there still be absolute signals at the control points? ( Moterm, Yellow Cab)

Just so you know, you need FRA permission to dactivate a signal system. So, while your scenario is interesting, its highly unlikely that the FRA would grant permission to a railroad to de-activate the signal system on it. Even the former Monon in Southern Indiana has a 'functioning' signal system despite the track being out of service. FRA has not granted CSX permission to turn those off.

Practice Safe CSX

LS&I was able to get the blessing of the FRA to remove the signals on the hill to Marquette in 2008. The signals in Ishpeming are still up, turned off/ folded in. Last I knew LS&I was still working on the waiver to remove those.

[GTWChris]

When a SB is lined up to take Main 2 Moterm to Milwaukee Jct, what indication will the SB Moterm signals display?
(North of Moterm it is bi directional CTC/ south it is ABS. SBs on Main 2 need track authorities.)

I beleive they get a restricting signal.

[ConrailDetr​oit]

At Moterm they need to have an authority to go down Main 2 so if the signal is stop, they have permisson to pass it included in the track authority?

There not removing signals from the Holly Sub or is there a rumor. It was just an example.

Haven would be the CTC island on the Mt Clemens Sub. I think there is an approach signal in the TWC territory somewhere but have not seen it.

[Buster Manning]

whenever a train has to run wrong main between Moterm and Milw. Jct., they get restricting signals to enter the trackage after they get their paperwork....

When I worked down in NC between Charlotte and Raleigh on the Piedmont, we would get restricting signals to enter the dark territory (Greensboro and Cary) after we got our paperwork....

mind you, these territories were CN and NS trackage and their operating rules differ from what Tops mentioned about his territory he works on the UP; kinda curious if this is a system wide rule or just this particular location and the CP's not being wired to indicate restricting signals

[Ribbon Rail]

We have 38 miles of TWC territory (current of traffic - 2 mains but only signalled in one direction) DT/ABS between Ben, IL (Watseka) and Beecher, IL. On each end of it is a crossover and within those 38 miles, there are only two signals, both absolutes, both railroad crossings at grade; St. Anne (KBSR) and Momence (NS). St. Anne is an automatic interlocking (no CP), while Momence is an automatic interlocking with a release box, but there is also a crossover there, making it a CP. 49 mph max, but at both of those interlockings you have to be prepared to stop, as the signal could be red and there are no approach signals to them. Same thing with coming back up to signalled territory, even if you have a distant signal, it is still only going to be approach and the next signal (first signal governing you outside of your authority) could be red, green, or otherwise.

That’s insane. For as busy a route as the old C&EI - MoPac is here, who dropped the ball on CTC’ing this 38-mile stretch of railroad?

Like a track authority, track and time is authority between two named spots, but now it is signalled territory, including CP's. When a train gets track and time, those signals disappear, the dispatcher cannot give you a favorable signal or any signal at all. But like an authority, track and time IS your authority to proceed, so you can do so at will passing red intermediates at 49 mph, but at CP's, you have to stop and proceed. And keep in mind ALL the signals will be red. What would normally be an absolute red signal that you'd need to get authority to pass, is now a stop and proceed, you are just stopping and then going by it without ever talking to the dipatcher. Just need to stop, making sure the switch is lined for you and then go; unless it is a railroad crossing at grade; then you may want to stop and NOT proceed until talking to the dispatcher. T&T is also used in signal system failures/outages.

Again, keep in mind that different rule books vary. And since Momence is the crossing with NS’ Kankakee Secondary, this is also TWC last I knew, they might have similar rules to cross the automatic interlocking there.

I could be wrong, but there is no provision for T&E to use track & time, that may be strictly a USOR-GCOR (and CSX) thing?

[Ribbon Rail]

Most likley like the Mt. Clemens Sub it would also have some Rule 520 tetory also (Movement on other then main track (basicly yard limits)).

True, but keeping in mind that yard limits are ONLY in effect for the main track.

Just so you know, you need FRA permission to dactivate a signal system. So, while your scenario is interesting, its highly unlikely that the FRA would grant permission to a railroad to de-activate the signal system on it. Even the former Monon in Southern Indiana has a 'functioning' signal system despite the track being out of service. FRA has not granted CSX permission to turn those off.

Practice Safe CSX

Have they applied to do so yet?

[sd70accsxt700]

whenever a train has to run wrong main between Moterm and Milw. Jct., they get restricting signals to enter the trackage after they get their paperwork....

When I worked down in NC between Charlotte and Raleigh on the Piedmont, we would get restricting signals to enter the dark territory (Greensboro and Cary) after we got our paperwork....

mind you, these territories were CN and NS trackage and their operating rules differ from what Tops mentioned about his territory he works on the UP; kinda curious if this is a system wide rule or just this particular location and the CP's not being wired to indicate restricting signals

That may be the way CN has it done, and we are talking about CN, but for referance it can and does change.

Three examples on CSX. At Carleton, going from the Toledo Terminal sub to the Lincoln Sub(and the Lincoln is dark tetory, except for advance signas at Penford and Carleton, and the automatic at Penford, but once again these are for the diamonds only and not block occupancy), anyway from TT to Lincoln we get Medium Approach into dark tetory.

At Hallett, and most everywhere else north of Vickers on the Toledo Terminal we get Restrictings into dark tetory.

And finally heading north from ABS/CPS on both the TT and the old C&O out of Walbridge, if you are going to run wrong main(ie. dark tetory) between Dry Creek(CP) and Vickers(CP) on #2 track after receving your EC-1(movement form) you get a Clear signal at Dry Creek, and can and most time's will have a stop signal at vickers.

[Mr. Tops]

I just took track and time the other day dumping ballast. Joint track and time with the MofW EIC. We cut in about 10 miles of new signals last summer, and during the cutover, there was a flagman at the control point at each end of the suspended signal system and trains were being issued joint T&T permits, AFAIK. I wasn't working that day, but that's the word on the street. On top of that, for whatever reason, our dispatchers either can't or won't roll up track permits on the MoPac; UP allows it but for whatever reason the Chicago dispatchers dont do it. The only thing they will do to speed up running agaist the current, is give a train two permits, one from I074 to I050 (Ben to Pence) and then one from I050 to I036 (Beecher) and once you clear Pence, you give that permit up and then the guy behind you can get his permit. Our permits are always between two control points, and never just mileposts. The fact that there is only one control point in the 38 mile stretch of directional running kinda sucks.

The signal system on the Villa Grove Sub is one of the oldest in existance on the entire UP map. While there may be some new signals mixed in, the wiring and setup is still that of years ago. Until a few years ago, you couldn't get an advance approach south of Woodland Jct on the branch. Just clear to approach to red, or restricting going into a siding. Finally, the entire signal network on the branch is being renewed; now we get advance approach, approach diverging, diverging approch and even a diverging advance approach into the siding if you are lined out the other end! This summer should see the completion of this project, closing the gaps in our couple 5-8 mile blocks (can't wait!). One of our 4 sidings between north of Villa Grove (not including Villa Grove), finally just got welded rail last summer, as well; though they haven't thought to raise the 10mph limit on it yet. There may be some more work to be done this spring/summer before that happens, though. Another one of the sidings still has a spring switch at the south end! That will be going in the near future, hopefully this summer. They already have the double headed signal up to get an approach diverging when the switch does go in.

The signal system on the double, north of Woodland is a bit newer, but nothing special. It behooves me why they haven't signalled it in both directions...yet. In the 65 mile stretch between Yard Center and Woodland, there are 4.5 crossovers. One at Woodland (MP 83), half at Momence (MP 50), one at Beecher (MP 36), half at Sauk Trail (MP 28), the other half of the Sauk Trail xover at Twelfth St (MP 26) and then one at Thornton (MP 20). So, between 36 and 20, you have 3 sets of xovers, and between 36 and 83 you have 2.5. As you can see, we could use a full xover at Pence; the one that's there is only good for 15mph anyhow, and a new set somewhere around St. Anne MP 60, perhaps. It is always a clusterf*^k going north, trying to get past Thornton, Yard Center and Dolton. Trains often back up to Grant Park and not uncommonly south towards Momence and even St. Anne when it gets really jacked. A few new sets of xovers and bi-directional signalling may alleviate that problem a little bit!

PS - sorry for kinda hijacking the thread.

[bnsfben]

As for the Holly sub, I have never seen a SB take main 2 at Moterm, so I can't say for sure what would happen but I would imagine it would be a restricting. I have seen SB's on main 1, they get a clear (which makes sense). As for taking out CTC between Moterm and Durand is HIGHLY unlikely. Although the Holly isn't super busy, Pontiac still makes an interesting place to move trains. It would be way to much paperwork to take a train from Main 1 to Main 2 to the yard lead at Pontiac, all while the dispatcher is trying to work on the Flint, Holly, Mt. Clemens, BLE, Flatrock, and Shoreline subdivisions. I could see the CTC being removed north of West Pontiac to Pitt Junction. With a CTC island at Holly. Andersonville is very rarely used. I would not be surprised if CN ripped up Andersonville soon. Holly is roughly a good "half-way" point between the double track at Durand and West Pontiac. The thing is, since CN already has CTC in, I doubt they will spend the money to take it out. If this were a new main, I bet the would go with track warrant territory. In my mind, it would be nearly the exact same as the Mt. Clemens.

The funny thing is that the Mt. Clemens is busier than the Holly (North of Pontiac), but the Mt. Clemens isn't CTC'd.

Another thing is if I were in a high up CN position I would tear out Main 2 between Moterm and MAL junction. It would save a bunch of money. That track isn't needed anyway. I have a business perspective on the railroad... I think having single track would save more money than the benefits of having double track.

Mr. Tops brings up an interesting point about signal indications into Track Warrant trackage. I know for a fact at Haven, you get a clear into the track warrant territory. I think this is interesting. I think this is most likely so that if a train doesn't have to stop at Haven, it can continue moving at 49 MPH without slowing down to 15 MPH for a restricting.

[Mr. Tops]

I know for a fact at Haven, you get a clear into the track warrant territory. I think this is interesting. I think this is most likely so that if a train doesn't have to stop at Haven, it can continue moving at 49 MPH without slowing down to 15 MPH for a restricting.

But once you are in the limits of your track authority, that authority is your authoirty to proceed, not the signal. If you were expected to act upon that signal and go restricted speed, then you wouldn't really need an authority in the first place. As I said, on UP, we have a red signal at the beginning of our authority and we have to get authority to pass it from the dispatcher. Normally, under those circumstances (signal indication), you are at restricted speed until you pass the next signal (and it is more favorable). In this case, our next signal would not be for as much as 24 miles (and that'd take well upwards of an hour to get to going restricted speed). When you have an authority however, after you stop and get authority to pass that red signal, you are now in the limits of your authority and can move at max speed, 49 mph per GCOR, (CN may be different?) and it is no longer signal indication. So even if you have a resticting signal at the beginning of your authority, if your authority begins just on the other side of it, you can do 49 and not restricted speed. Get it? And how many times did I say authority?

[Ribbon Rail]

The only thing they will do to speed up running agaist the current, is give a train two permits, one from I074 to I050 (Ben to Pence) and then one from I050 to I036 (Beecher) and once you clear Pence, you give that permit up and then the guy behind you can get his permit. Our permits are always between two control points, and never just mileposts. The fact that there is only one control point in the 38 mile stretch of directional running kinda sucks.

This just reeks of newb dispatchers who’ve never really controlled a line or lines that were primarily TWC. It’s a lesson in true dispatching & keeping everything straight. Sounds to me they’re either being lazy or honestly just don’t know better, the latter of which is sad in that kind of position.

[Ribbon Rail]

Mr. Tops brings up an interesting point about signal indications into Track Warrant trackage. I know for a fact at Haven, you get a clear into the track warrant territory. I think this is interesting. I think this is most likely so that if a train doesn't have to stop at Haven, it can continue moving at 49 MPH without slowing down to 15 MPH for a restricting.

What does the USOR rule book say about interlocking rules, if anything at all? On some rule books, you would still have to slow down to pass through the interlocking limits at restricted speed, but once your leading wheels enter TWC territory, you’re wide open if necessary accelerating to track speed. That is, the restricting indication is only in effect between absolute signals.