New MDOT Rail Plan

[MagnumForce]

Reinstall the Riga to Ottawa Lake section? Why not put the Adrian to Hillsdale portion back in?

Ridiculous pipe dreams.

[Ben Higdon]

Reinstall the Riga to Ottawa Lake section? Why not put the Adrian to Hillsdale portion back in?

Ridiculous pipe dreams.

They probably paid consultants top dollar to come up with that plan.

[J T]

There is no reason for Amtrak to go to Kzoo from GR. The way the system is set up now is fine. If you live halfway between Kzoo and GR, it's a short drive either way to catch the train. The GR-Holland-Chicago run is the most convenient for everyone in GR and to the west, immediately east and all points north.

GR-Kzoo-Chicago is redundant.

[AARR]

Reinstall the Riga to Ottawa Lake section? Why not put the Adrian to Hillsdale portion back in?

Ridiculous pipe dreams.

I for one will not be surprised if Riga to Ottawa Lake is reconnected some day.

[jimnorthwood]

If NS were ever to decide it didn't want the Toledo-Ottawa Lake line anymore, then I could see the possible restoration of Riga-Ottawa Lake. In the year leading up to the formation of Conrail, it was determined that the entire PC line from Toledo through Ottawa Lake and beyond was not to be included in Conrail. Later the line was reevaluated and it was determined that the Toledo-Ottawa Lake section was viable enough for inclusion (CR operated north to Clinton until Budd closed in 1982 or 1983). I think I read somewhere that CR's reason for keeping Toledo-Ottawa Lake was more about making sure no shortline would end up gaining access to Toledo that way, than about retaining the business at the big elevator in Ottawa Lake. Of course that was CR, and that was 35+ years ago. Had CR decided not to take Toledo-Ottawa Lake they probably figured MDOT would step in, purchase either Riga-Ottawa Lake or Ottawa Lake-Toledo or both, and contract with LCRC to operate it. As CR wanted to keep a shortline out of Toledo they probably figured their best bet was to bite the bullet and take on Toledo-Ottawa Lake themselves. They do run some decent sized trains from the elevator during grain season.

[railroadchoad]

If I am not mistaken,for a few years after its creation, Conrail operated up to Tecumseh on the Clinton branch to serve GM subsidiary plant (Fisher Guide, I think). To do this they operated up from Air Line Jct. through Ottawa Lake and Blissfield to Lenewee Jct. on the "Old Road" and took the Clinton Branch up to Tecumseh. LCRC originally interchanged with CR at Lenewee Jct. A few years later (I want to say 1980, or so) LCRC took over the trackage between Lenewee Jct and Riga. There was no point in keeping the rail in place between Riga and Ottawa Lake due to the fact that Conrail wanted to continue to serve the big elevator in Ottawa Lake. LCRC must have thought that it wasn't worth maintaining the trackage between Ottawa Lake and Riga just to be able to continue to be able to interchange with Conrail when there were no customers between those points. Besides they already had the ability to interchange with DT&I at Riga and N&W at Adrian.

It's still too bad that that stretch is gone. It might have come in handy. There is an industrial building built across the ROW in Ottawa Lake north of the elevator.

[Ben Higdon]

I think I read somewhere that CR's reason for keeping Toledo-Ottawa Lake was more about making sure no shortline would end up gaining access to Toledo that way, than about retaining the business at the big elevator in Ottawa Lake.

That doesn't add up...if Conrail didn't care about the elevator traffic, they would have retained ownership of the line out of Toledo to just past the last foreign road connection. They did that in Grand Rapids...retained ownership of the GR&I to the other side of the C&O diamond at Comstock Park, so MIGN could not interchange with the other railroads in Grand Rapids. Retaining ownership to Ottawa Lake ensured the elevator traffic would be captive. I doubt Conrail would have minded if the track was kept in place to Riga...they could have sold the track for better than scrap value and got some interchange traffic that otherwise would go to NW or DTI.

[Robert MacDowell]

If I am not mistaken,for a few years after its creation, Conrail operated up to Tecumseh on the Clinton branch to serve GM subsidiary plant (Fisher Guide, I think).

The Fisher Body/Inland plant was located halfway between Tecumseh and Adrian on the former DT&I line owned at the time by Norfolk Southern. The section between Tecumseh and the Fisher plant was the roughest, evident of at least a decade of disuse in the 1980s when the Southern Michigan Railroad Society was offered the line by NS. Notably the section through the gravel quarry was so overgrown that you couldn't get through it on foot! I really doubt Conrail reached the plant via Tecumseh based solely on track condition; I also doubt NS would let them.

Carloadings on the Clinton branch were very very light in the early 1980s. The biggest train might have been 10 cars. Jeff Dobek, Doug Leffler, Gerald Grossman etc. can tell you all about that, or if anyone has issues of "The Cross Tracks" newsletter, it really focused on that line. There certainly wasn't anything like automotive traffic on the line, save for the Budd/Libbey Owens Ford nee Pilkington glass plant in Clinton.

To do this they operated up from Air Line Jct. through Ottawa Lake and Blissfield to Lenewee Jct. on the "Old Road" and took the Clinton Branch up to Tecumseh. LCRC originally interchanged with CR at Lenewee Jct. A few years later (I want to say 1980, or so) LCRC took over the trackage between Lenewee Jct and Riga. There was no point in keeping the rail in place between Riga and Ottawa Lake due to the fact that Conrail wanted to continue to serve the big elevator in Ottawa Lake.

It was more a case that Conrail wanted to deny LCRC(ADBF) or GTW(I&O) access to the elevator. The abandonment was a chess game. They abandoned the line from Riga to the elevator in 2 stages: first from Riga to "X" (random spot a mile north of the elevator), then X to the elevator. If the first section had been bought by a competitor, then they simply would refuse to abandon the last section. If they had abandoned the entire section in one piece, GTW would have snapped it up in a heartbeat.

LCRC must have thought that it wasn't worth maintaining the trackage between Ottawa Lake and Riga just to be able to continue to be able to interchange with Conrail when there were no customers between those points. Besides they already had the ability to interchange with DT&I at Riga and N&W at Adrian.

The devil of it was the diamond at Riga. Those things are brutally expensive to maintain. Railroads rip them out the first chance they get. GTW pulled the diamond a couple months before Conrail was done, and had to put it back!

[edit: broken quotes]

[Robert MacDowell]

I didn't look at every link, but one long-term goal that caught my eye was to move the A&B interchange point from Adrian, to Toledo. I suspect this would involve the restoration of trackage from Riga to Ottawa Lake, with A&B to get trackage rights into Airline Yard. Interesting...

I can't imagine the A&B getting a traffic source that would "need" to have the restoration of track and moving the interchange to Toledo. Not to mention how long it would take to recoup the investment.

I can imagine it. Take a wild and seemingly unlikely project like this, the average railfan will fantasize glassy-eyed about it but concede it'll never happen... but the A&B's manager will talk seriously about it in a way that seems business reasonable. You look at all that A&B has accomplished for better or worse in recent years... not least, JAIL, and keeping a dinner train alive in a region where they're dropping like flies... I would say if anyone has the moxie to pull it off, they do.

DON'T underestimate A&B.

[C30-7A]

I'd like to make a few points regarding Montreal.

Bring back the International? There was a reason they stopped running it: Customs. It was too much of a hassle getting people across the boarder. Amtrak's Maple Leaf or whatever it's called now crosses the boarder out east and can and has sat at customs for over 2 hours while the train and passengers were inspected. It was easier to terminate the train in Port Huron and let passengers get across to VIA connections on their own.

Here's an interesting fact that isn't talked about much. Customs was not the reason this train was cut back into the Blue Water. On the Maple Leaf, Adirondack and, yes, the International, customs only took 1 hour to do their work and at most an hour and a half. There were TWO reasons the International was cut back:
1. DELAYS by CN. THIS was why the train was always delayed in Port Huron. The station was not built for through trains and was stub ended. This is all fine and dandy for the original Blue Water Limited and current Blue Water, but it was never conducive to the International as it required a backup move and multiple signals - multiple signals that CN's poor dispatching in the early 2000s would not give the trains readily. If the International was running today, now that Amtrak and the STB are reaming CN's @$$ for such delays, this wouldn't be a problem.
2. RIDERSHIP. It is a fact that the International continually started losing ridership in the 1990s. While it provided a good day service across Michigan, the schedule just wasn't conducive to many people's schedules. The early morning and evening arrival and departure times at both Chicago and Toronto made transfers and connections difficult for passengers and day trips impossible. The original Blue Water Limited and current Blue Water, which operate on a morning schedule, has always done well with ridership. The Blue Water is perhaps one of the biggest success stories on the entire Amtrak system, as each year sees double digit ridership increases. You don't even need to study those numbers to see how popular the train is; In 2004, it was a four car consist on average - today, the consist averages six to seven cars and more in peak travel times. The schedule works.
Now having made the above points, I'd like to point out another thing that is all too often forgotten by most railfans.

THE PERE MARQUETTE AND BLUE WATER ARE ENTIRELY FUNDED BY THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

Amtrak is only the OPERATOR for the trains and provides the equipment and staffing. It was not Amtrak's decision to cut the International, it was the state of Michigan's. The State and VIA came together to operate the trains through to Toronto. Amtrak, as the operator on the US side, just went along with it. Any service cuts or improvements to these trains are solely at the discretion of the State of Michigan - Amtrak must just go along with it. And this has become especially true in light of the 2008 PRIIA legislation, which, if we may recall, opens the field up to other operators to compete with Amtrak. If the state wanted, they could potentially choose another operator besides Amtrak for the Blue Water AND Pere Marquette. Two operators that I know of, which currently conduct some commuter operations, are Herzog and Viola. And I know of a certain shortline in Michigan that operates over state owned rails that has an interest in providing Passenger service and would probably leap at the opportunity if it arose. Amtrak does NOT want this to happen, so to keep providing service as the operator, they would definitely want to go along with the state's operating plans. Now having said this, if the State of Michigan and VIA Rail come to an agreement to make trains 364 and 365 a cross-border service again, Amtrak would be advised to go along with it. The sensible solution would be a train similar to the Lake Shore Limited. The train would stay on the present schedule between Chicago and Port Huron and would operate through the night, arriving at Toronto in the early morning and in Montreal by the early afternoon. It would then depart again in the evening, keeping the same schedule westbound from Port Huron to Chicago. This preserves ridership and service in Michigan at the current levels (CRITICAL to the success of the train) and also returns a cross-border connection between Chicago, Toronto and Eastern Canada. As a note, I should point out that the ORIGINAL International Limited, operated by CN and GTW (as GTW trains 14 and 15) ran an overnight schedule similar to this with connections to Montreal. The consist would likely be two locomotives, a baggage car, one or two Viewliner sleepers, a dining car and lounge car and several Amfleet II coaches. Given the ridership in Michigan and the added international ridership, this train could be as long as the 11-12 car Lake Shore Limited. The high speed portion of the Michigan Line, plus height restrictions at Montreal Central station will preclude the operation of Superliners and force a single level train. Having said this, however, it may not preclude the use of VIA's long distance passenger car fleet, which currently operates at speeds of up to 100 MPH in parts of Canada. These would be the Stainless Steel Budd Heritage cars or the newer, European-built Renaissance cars. VIA's P42 fleet or rebuilt F40PH-3s could also be used, provided they are outfitted with ITCS equipment for the Michigan Corridor. It seems more likely that Amtrak's equipment (which they have enough of NOW for this service and DEFINITELY will when the new Viewliner order is delivered) would be used. Whatever the case, if the State of Michigan and VIA come to an agreement on doing this service, Amtrak would be strongly advised to go along with it or risk possibly being revoked as the United States service provider for the state.
Oh, and that pesky customs issue? Here's a possible and VERY DOABLE solution: Have customs officials board the train in Flint (in the U.S.) or London (in Canada) and have them do the work while the trains are enroute to Port Huron or Sarnia (respectively). Doing so would cut down or even eliminate delays at the border stations. This could have been done before if not for laziness on Amtrak and VIA's parts.
I can't speak on if the state is actually pursuing this idea. All I'm saying is how this would and possibly could happen if it went down. As for what actually does happen, We'll just to have to wait and see.

[Raildudes dad]

Annoying example of how we've supposadly become so "clean":
Nearly everything to be built must have an enviornmental study. If CSX wants to rebuild the bridge over the Thornapple river, they must study the river bottom and analyze any possible affects bridge contruction/destruction would have. This is why it's taken nearly 20 years to TRY rebuild the I-75 bridge(s) over the Ohio River in Cincinatti. Involved were years of enviornmental studies, and yes, there were several years of fighting NIMBYs.

And on what basis do you make the statement in bold? I manage bridge construction projects for my employer and that "fact" is news to me.

Yes, if you use federal monies, the agency must complete an environmental impact study. For a simple bridge replacement project, usually a statement of "no significant impact". is all that is required. If CSX would use "private" funds, they are not required to file an environmental impact study with the DOT. They have to get a DEQ permit which addresses hydraulic requirements, fish and wildlife concerns and construction activity (soil erosion) issues.

As for the Brett Spence Bridge, it will be paid for with almost all federal funds with historic buildings on both banks, thus the very intense environmental study.

[ConrailMan5]

As far as customs are concerned, I find that the U.S customs are much more time consuming. Getting in to canada from sault st. marie, the canadians ustoms agent was quick and consise, even suested a restraunt for us. no more than 15 Minutes. He could tell we were not a threat, everythin moved quickly. Goin back to the U.S, there waS a 50 minute wait before the customs ait ( although i did see a CN train waiting to clear customs over the bridge from there). On top of that, it took half an hour to clear our car. it was ridiculous! That is the bigest problem for trains going international. Or even the lakeshore, which border patrol decided to delay 40 minutes even though it wasn't even going to canada the last time I rode.

F.Y.I any missing G's are because my g key doesn't work well.

Some guy (and this is unlikly) could just lodge a grenade in under the car and it goes boom. Anyway, back to the schedule.

Sorry invalid argument you're done

Agree

[Saturnalia]

Annoying example of how we've supposadly become so "clean":
Nearly everything to be built must have an enviornmental study. If CSX wants to rebuild the bridge over the Thornapple river, they must study the river bottom and analyze any possible affects bridge contruction/destruction would have. This is why it's taken nearly 20 years to TRY rebuild the I-75 bridge(s) over the Ohio River in Cincinatti. Involved were years of enviornmental studies, and yes, there were several years of fighting NIMBYs.

And on what basis do you make the statement in bold? I manage bridge construction projects for my employer and that "fact" is news to me.

Yes, if you use federal monies, the agency must complete an environmental impact study. For a simple bridge replacement project, usually a statement of "no significant impact". is all that is required. If CSX would use "private" funds, they are not required to file an environmental impact study with the DOT. They have to get a DEQ permit which addresses hydraulic requirements, fish and wildlife concerns and construction activity (soil erosion) issues.

As for the Brett Spence Bridge, it will be paid for with almost all federal funds with historic buildings on both banks, thus the very intense environmental study.

Ahh...I was assuming govt projects were the same as private. Is the rule then for any govt-funded project? Even if they were to chip in only $1?

[Saturnalia]

for an international train thru Michigan--> ROUTE IT THROUGH DETROIT!!! More Direct, and will soon be state owned and hopefully a 110 MPH rocket ride

[C30-7A]

for an international train thru Michigan--> ROUTE IT THROUGH DETROIT!!! More Direct, and will soon be state owned and hopefully a 110 MPH rocket ride

Unless this portion of PRIIA is amended, that may happen when the state of Michigan begins subsidizing the Detroit trains. That won't happen right now, however, because Amtrak still funds these trains themselves and with Congress continually attempting to slash them into shutdown, they cannot and will not add any new service on their own. At this point, a reinstated International Limited over the GTW is the most plausible possibility.

[NoviRailfan]

When was Amtrak service to Toledo from Detroit discontinued?

[chapmaja]

There is no reason for Amtrak to go to Kzoo from GR. The way the system is set up now is fine. If you live halfway between Kzoo and GR, it's a short drive either way to catch the train. The GR-Holland-Chicago run is the most convenient for everyone in GR and to the west, immediately east and all points north.

GR-Kzoo-Chicago is redundant.

I disagree with you regarding GR-Kzoo. I have always found it assinine that you need to go to Chicago to take the train from GR-Detroit area. When I was in college (without a car) I would have taken Amtrak from Gr-K'zoo then K'zoo to AA, if it was offered. Instead I would have been forced to take the train from K'zoo to Chicago the Chicago to Ann Arbor.

I think current routes need to be maintained, but I also think they need to add either a GR-K'zoo train or a GR-Lansing-Detroit-Pontiac train.

[chapmaja]

If NS were ever to decide it didn't want the Toledo-Ottawa Lake line anymore, then I could see the possible restoration of Riga-Ottawa Lake. In the year leading up to the formation of Conrail, it was determined that the entire PC line from Toledo through Ottawa Lake and beyond was not to be included in Conrail. Later the line was reevaluated and it was determined that the Toledo-Ottawa Lake section was viable enough for inclusion (CR operated north to Clinton until Budd closed in 1982 or 1983). I think I read somewhere that CR's reason for keeping Toledo-Ottawa Lake was more about making sure no shortline would end up gaining access to Toledo that way, than about retaining the business at the big elevator in Ottawa Lake. Of course that was CR, and that was 35+ years ago. Had CR decided not to take Toledo-Ottawa Lake they probably figured MDOT would step in, purchase either Riga-Ottawa Lake or Ottawa Lake-Toledo or both, and contract with LCRC to operate it. As CR wanted to keep a shortline out of Toledo they probably figured their best bet was to bite the bullet and take on Toledo-Ottawa Lake themselves. They do run some decent sized trains from the elevator during grain season.

I think you might see this line put in sooner ror later. With NS having the vast majority of control over the interchange of the ADBF it could really be their call as much as anything. I think what could happen is the line is restored and the interchange between the ADBF and NS is moved to Ottawa Lake (or ADBF is granted trackage rights into Toledo). This would eliminate the need to interchange in Adrian (a bad place to interchange) and it could streamline operations and freight transfers between the companies. I'm not sure NS wants the hassle of interchanging in Adrian anymore, while at the same time, the ADBF and their customers could use the the streamlined interchance via Toledo.

[AARR]

then I could see the possible restoration of Riga-Ottawa Lake.

I think you might see this line put in sooner ror later.

Who will pay for it and what is the financial benefit to the company that has to invest their money? NS has the money but what is their benefit? ADBF can get them money but how will they get their money back plus a profit? Not sure state is willing to put money into these projects at this time but maybe down the road.

[Saturnalia]

then I could see the possible restoration of Riga-Ottawa Lake.

I think you might see this line put in sooner ror later.

Who will pay for it and what is the financial benefit to the company that has to invest their money? NS has the money but what is their benefit? ADBF can get them money but how will they get their money back plus a profit? Not sure state is willing to put money into these projects at this time but maybe down the road.

I think the state should stay out of Freight Ops, and foucus solely on Passenger.