Grand Trunk Saginaw sub in the 1980s...

[rustbeltrailroad]

Hi everybody,
I would like to understand the saginaw/baycity track and industry layout in the 1980s. I have just realized that I don't even know what tracks were GT, CO in some areas. Share any info / links you have. I am hoping to come up with a track map with industries for the 1980s and use it for a HO layout... I am sitting on a empty room and a lot of good track and freight, I have a job, and want to build something great, prototypical, and operational ...
Thanks
Martin

[AARR]

Darn, wish I could post maps cause I have a decent recollection of what you are asking for

1980's was probably the end of a very good era because afterwards industries either closed or stopped using rail service and many tracks were removed.

[TomCat4680]

Hi everybody,
I would like to understand the saginaw/baycity track and industry layout in the 1980s. I have just realized that I don't even know what tracks were GT, CO in some areas. Share any info / links you have. I am hoping to come up with a track map with industries for the 1980s and use it for a HO layout... I am sitting on a empty room and a lot of good track and freight, I have a job, and want to build something great, prototypical, and operational ...
Thanks
Martin

The H&E line from Durand to Bay City used to be the GTW Saginaw Sub. (I think?)

[AARR]

The H&E line from Durand to Bay City used to be the GTW Saginaw Sub.

It is a little confusing identifying whos tracks are whos but IIRC the current line HESR uses between Saginaw and Bay City is actually ex-PC/NYC/MC line. The track just east that terminates at Sargent Docks is the old GTW mainline from Saginaw to Bay City.

Like I said if I could post a map I could be more effective and provide about 75-90% of the answers you are looking for. There are a few gusy here who know 99.99% of what you are looking for.

[TomCat4680]

Hi everybody,
I would like to understand the saginaw/baycity track and industry layout in the 1980s. I have just realized that I don't even know what tracks were GT, CO in some areas. Share any info / links you have. I am hoping to come up with a track map with industries for the 1980s and use it for a HO layout... I am sitting on a empty room and a lot of good track and freight, I have a job, and want to build something great, prototypical, and operational ...
Thanks
Martin

This book might help:

Grand Trunk Corporation: Canadian National Railways in the United States, 1971-1992

Also, contact this group. They're based in Durand Union Station so check out their museum (open Saturdays 1-4)

Grand Trunk Western Historical Society

[rustbeltrailroad]

OK, that is good info I did not know (that that was GT from Sargent Docks to BC). I can see on google map the route. And I am gonna check out that book also, my SFSU library will get any book you request. Thanks for the info guys. I guess now I just need to deal with the contradiction between 1:1 scale and 1:87... Which is tough. I will have to say that between Sargent Docks, the C&O crossing, and the scrap recycling is my most sought after information. It contains a lot of industries in a relevantly small area. And I have memory of delivering grain from the farm to the large grain terminal there with my uncle. I remember 1 BN grain hopper sitting out by where we would pull the large truck in from the road, we had to drive within 10 feet of it. Then pulling right up behind a hopper and dumping the grain. This was probably 1988ish, before the bridge was done.

Oh, maybe you know, what was loaded/unloaded at those docks? Do you think D&M hoppers were ever there with lime stone or gypsum? Or maybe cement from Dundee or Lafarge?
thanks,
martin

[AARR]

Oh, maybe you know, what was loaded/unloaded at those docks? Do you think D&M hoppers were ever there with lime stone or gypsum? Or maybe cement from Dundee or Lafarge?

D&M at one time sent many carloads of various aggegates (gypsum, shale, limestone, gravel) south to Saginaw but by the 1980's it had all pretty much dried up. About the only D&M cars going into or through Saginaw in the 1980's was gypsum which ended up at the cement plant in Dundee and ballast for GTW and others. Sargent received something from D&M too but I don't know which aggregate it was.

Cement from Alpena was and still is shipped to the terminal in Carrollton.

[TomCat4680]

OK, that is good info I did not know (that that was GT from Sargent Docks to BC). I can see on google map the route. And I am gonna check out that book also, my SFSU library will get any book you request. Thanks for the info guys. I guess now I just need to deal with the contradiction between 1:1 scale and 1:87... Which is tough. I will have to say that between Sargent Docks, the C&O crossing, and the scrap recycling is my most sought after information. It contains a lot of industries in a relevantly small area. And I have memory of delivering grain from the farm to the large grain terminal there with my uncle. I remember 1 BN grain hopper sitting out by where we would pull the large truck in from the road, we had to drive within 10 feet of it. Then pulling right up behind a hopper and dumping the grain. This was probably 1988ish, before the bridge was done.

Oh, maybe you know, what was loaded/unloaded at those docks? Do you think D&M hoppers were ever there with lime stone or gypsum? Or maybe cement from Dundee or Lafarge?
thanks,
martin

Glad to help. Let me know what you think of that book, I'd like to read it too.

[rustbeltrailroad]

Today, just north of Sargent Docks is RR Ready Mix cement. Does anybody know if this existed back in the 1980s? Was it called this? I hope to add this at the end of my Sargent Docks/Zilwaukee branch to receive cement from Dundee. Looking at google map at the Sargent docks it looks like there was a wye type track configuration to push cuts of cars right up along the self-loading ships. Any idea when that stopped, and if cars could have been unloaded to a self-loading ship on a track like that? Thanks for any info.
Martin

[pbmaxno15]

According to 1976 NOAA chart of Saginaw River, that facility was know as Anderson Sand and Gravel.

[rustbeltrailroad]

According to 1976 NOAA chart of Saginaw River, that facility was know as Anderson Sand and Gravel.

Oh, very cool! I just tried google NOAA and only found the 2003 charts... Did you find that online? I would love to see the 1976 one.

[pbmaxno15]

1976 chart is framed on our wall in the laundry room. I have been looking for other old editions online and can't find them. I thought they might be available somewhere, but I can't find them. I will keep looking and let you know if I find them. They have been very useful in in researching railroads in towns like Mackinaw City, Alpena, Muskegon, Bay City, and Port Huron. Many of the industries are identified, as well as the railroad facilities.

[pbmaxno15]

Found it.
http://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/tiled/ ... 867-6-1976

[rustbeltrailroad]

Another question... There is the grain elevator that is closest to the Zilwaukee bridge owned by the Farm Bureau in the early 1980s, then there is the other one close to Michigan Sugar. Who owned that one in the 1980s, was it something called Michigan Bean? And what RRs serviced them in the 80s I would assume GT then CM. And what is the scrap/recycle place a little further to the south? was that around in the 1980s and was it serviced by CO or GT and then CM? According to the map above it was Wickes Lumber in 76'.
Thanks
Martin

[etmccaus]

Glad to help. Let me know what you think of that book, I'd like to read it too.

I have that book and I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone serious about studying the GTW to pick it up. It's written more as a business history, especially in light of Bandeen, Burdakin, etc. breaking somewhat from CNR tradition in the 1970s/ 1980s. You won't necessarily find rivet-counting or roster shots (there are plenty of other books that satisfy these topics), but this does provide detailed accounts on restructuring, adopting both the DT&I and DT&SL, managing the challenges of the DW&P and CV, and the failed attempt to purchase the Milwaukee Road. A great read.

-Evan

[JDavis21835]

That scrap yard was owned by luntz corp. Not sure if it was owned by anyone else before that

[AARR]

Another question... There is the grain elevator that is closest to the Zilwaukee bridge owned by the Farm Bureau in the early 1980s, then there is the other one close to Michigan Sugar. Who owned that one in the 1980s, was it something called Michigan Bean? And what RRs serviced them in the 80s I would assume GT then CM. And what is the scrap/recycle place a little further to the south? was that around in the 1980s and was it serviced by CO or GT and then CM? According to the map above it was Wickes Lumber in 76'.

The elevator closest to Zilwaukee Bridge was owned by Michigan Elevator Exchange IIRC. They owned a number of large elevators in MI at the time and had a fleet of yellow covered hoppers too.

They may also have owned the elevator closest to Pioneer Sugar (now MI Sugar, actually closed IIRC)

I thought Wickes was located on Harger Branch about a mile or two east of Saginaw Sub Jct.

[rustbeltrailroad]

I thought Wickes was located on Harger Branch about a mile or two east of Saginaw Sub Jct.

According to this 1976 map it was Wickes, OOPS, "Wickes Agriculture", not lumber.

http://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/tiled/ ... 867-6-1976

THis is a GREAT map PBMAX!!!! Thanks!
AARR, I actually have 4 very nicely done HO Michigan Elevator Exchange yellow hoppers, and can't wait to put them to use...

AARR, I have only recently joined this RR Fan page, and I have gotten more decisive questions answered from you than many many others combined. Thanks, I really have no theoretical/historical excuses now in developing and building my layout. PBMAX also, that map ROCKS!

[pbmaxno15]

I am glad the map has helped.
Here is 1983.
http://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/tiled/ ... 867-2-1983

[penn central]

I would rather talk about this in person Rustbelt because i could go on and on. I remember those Michigan Elevator Exchange grain hoppers i have a pic of one i took over 20 years ago. Wow the years sure do fly. I used to spend a ton of time at the Genesee Street Yard in the 1980's, The GTW switch crew would give me cab rides, No joke those where the days. I graduated from high school in 1985, I remember after school i would go to Genesee i would arrive Genesee at about 7 PM, Because you would have three train's in a row usual'y first would be the Chessie train from Edmore, This is before the Mid-Michigan Railroad startup, Sometime's he would have a grain train with two GP9's the power would roar threw the yard what a sight and sound. And then what Chessie called the west side job would come threw he worked the GM Plant's around Fordney Yard. And the last train would be the GTW local from Harger sometime's he would have up to 50 cars. A 25 car block of grain. The engineer of that crew his first name was John would prefer to work Harger last that's the reason they would be late. But sometime's he would only have 15 cars it depended. I hope this helps some Rustbelt.