NS Michigan Line

[GTW]

Any news on the sale of the line.

[Ypsi]

State owns it NS still operates it, NS owns Willow run and Jackson yards. No big changes yet. Still operating like NS did, Dearborn dispatching...

[railroadchoad]

Rumblings seem to indicate the possibility of big changes as soon as the end of the year.

There also seems to be something in the works in Marshall, Michigan.

[ConrailMan5]

Friend from CR says that they have been interested in the line. Not official though.

Also says that CP would like it, good route for it's intermodals

[Racer]

Friend from CR says that they have been interested in the line. Not official though.

Who is interested in the line?

[David Lang]

"Friend from CR says that they have been interested in the line. Not official though.

Also says that CP would like it, good route for it's intermodals"

CR as in Conrail? What does that mean? Conrail no longer exists except for the Shared Assets in Detroit and in New Jersey.

CP would like it - says who? I'm going to take a non-gullible stand this time and suggest this is only a rumor unless someone can PROVE to me otherwise. The State of Michigan has either bought the line or is in the process of buying the line for Amtrak to upgrade to higher speeds and connect to the already high speed portion in place West of Kalamazoo. Why in the WORLD would ANY freight railroad want this line and have to deal with dodging around Amtrak all day long unless they either ran their trains more at night than during the day OR they double tracked the line again so as to not contend with Amtrak. The first option is somewhat difficult and the second option would cost too much money. Yes, passing sidings and good signaling can allow freight and passenger to co-exist, but there still WILL be freight delays no matter what in my opinion and what freight railroad wants that? Just my thoughts and I'll believe it when I see or it. I remember back in the early 2000s, getting to know one of the BO Tower Operators in Kalamazoo and he stated to me back then (can't remember the exact year) that CP was so close to running on the old Michigan Line that it was "going to happen any day now" and trains were literally going to start running from what he was telling me. Never Happened! I'll say it again...Never Happened.

David Lang

[chapmaja]

I don't understand whay CR would want the line. Considering the ownership of CR (CSX and NS) that doesn't make sense.

I could see CP wanting the line, but does it have the required clearance for double stacks, and how would it work out from Kalamazoo south or west. Would Amtrak want them running west of K'zoo, or would the Grand Elk want them south of K'zoo? Going west over the Amtrak line would avoid much of the NS mainline, which has to be a holdup for CP trains going down to Butler and over. That holdup would still exist if CP went across the Michigan line then down the Grand Elk.

I personally think NS would want to hold onto the line. They now don't own the line, meaning they now just operate it and pay maintaince for their portion of the use of the line. Thier costs are significantly reduced but they still run generally the same carloads across the line. Unless that traffic just isn't profitable it makes no sense to get rid of the line.


Personally I still would love to see the AA get operations of the line. Operating from Toledo north, then over the line west to K'zoo would be a cool railroad. They would need to rehab the interchange track in AA, plus likely make some yard improvements in AA.

[BOHICA]

The sale between the state and NS hasn't closed yet. stay tuned.

[Ypsi]

The sale between the state and NS hasn't closed yet. stay tuned.

Should have been closed by may or June

[Saturnalia]

The state of Michigan has made an offer, NS has accepted it, and the deal is in the process of closing.

NS DID NOT want the Michigan Line. They had one freight each way, but the rest of the traffic is all Amtrak. They started asking themselves why they are paying for most of the track and wayside upkeep, yet Amtrak uses it the most!

As a bonus, NS gets to keep hauling freight, albeit very slowly once the new dispatchers are in. I'm going to speculate that NS will move the freights to the graveard shift, as to contend with Amtrak as little as possible.

CP could've bought the line a decade ago. Sure it's the most direct line between Detroit and Chicago, but It's Amtrak now. Unless it's double tracked, co-exsistance between CP & Amtrak isn't going to happen (not to mention the fact the heavy freight trains will only make the track go bad faster).

CP has two options. Run on the NS chicago Line with ver few holdups, and contend with the derailments and the dispatchers. Or, they can go back to CSX, taking the less direct route, but be slowed down considerably because of the singal track setup. But hey, we just installed signals, so CSX may as well use them!

[JANGAJONGA]

Rumblings seem to indicate the possibility of big changes as soon as the end of the year.

There also seems to be something in the works in Marshall, Michigan.

Can you elaborate as to what is going on in marshall? Also somewhere on here I read that NS was going to start running unit "Dirty-Dirt" trains to Willow run yard...has anyone heard anything?

[Buster Manning]

No dirt trains to Willow Run

curious about Marshall also....

expecting a new round of slow-orders on the Mich line any day now (to help speed up negotiations )

[conrail767596]

Line sale still hasn't been completed yet. "Expect an announcement in August or September, with 'something' to happen in the fall."

And Buster's correct. More speed restrictions to come if they don't get a little fire under their a****

[That Guy]

Remember the WATCO fiasco a few years back over this line??? Looks like NS found a way to dump it off and I would look for a shortline to operate it.... stay tuned!

[KenB]

Why or how would a shortline operator operate freight service over this line when NS is retaining the freight rights after the sale to the State of Michigan? NS would like to get out of the line since it goes no where but once they become a tenent they will be happy to keep the line . It does generate revenue just not enough to maintain it to passenger train standerds.

[MSchwiebert]

Don't forget that CP has also undergone a pretty significant leadership change, driven primairly by lack of performance. With all the needs/changes CP needs to make (according to the new leadership) to become a competitive factor again, spending money for their own route from Detroit to Chicago is not of a top priority. Even if were, The NS Michigan line almost assurredly would not be the first choice for several reasons - among them the Amtrak operations on the line, and why would Amtrak want that additional traffic on the line to impact scheduling or place more wear and tear on the high speed segments?

[chapmaja]

Remember the WATCO fiasco a few years back over this line??? Looks like NS found a way to dump it off and I would look for a shortline to operate it.... stay tuned!

NS already found a way to dump the line. They sold the line to the State of Michigan. NS gets to keep the profitable operations of the line, without having to pay to keep the trackage maintained to pay for passenger use. Now NS will be paying for their use of the line while the State of Michigan gets the task of paying to maintain the line.

NS will basically operate this as a short line operation, much like they have done in other areas. It already is basically run like a shortline anyway.

If I have the current schedule of the Michigan line correct they run 1 train each direction from Wayne to Jackson. One train then runs from Jackson to Battle Creek and one works the Battle Creek - Kalamazoo area. Each of those trains basically works as a local anyway, doing switching work as needed along the route. This is basically the same way a shortline would run the line. The only difference is the name on the engines and the contracts the employees work under.

Would I like to see a shortline operate this section? I think I have stated that my ultimate opinion would be for the interchange in AA to be re-installed and the Ann Arbor to operate from AA to Kalamazoo. I don't think it would ever happen, but it would be nice to see. More likely if a shortline took over, which I doubt will happen, it would be the operatores of the Grand Elk, WATCO.

[ConrailDetr​oit]

2 Questions

With NS being a "tenant" on the line, and not have to pay for maintenance, is it likely they would be interested in new business?

When Amtrak was formed in 1971, was there a kind of law that said Amtrak gets to operate on any freight railroad whether the freight railroad wants it or not?

[David Lang]

I am still holding to my opinion that the only "change" on the Michigan Line will be an upgrade to the current infastructure which will allow for higher speeds for Amtrak.

It is very difficult for me to even accept the possibility of CP or any other freight railroad to either purchase or operate the line with significant freight traffic due to the fact that Amtrak would always be in the way. I could be wrong and I do know that night running is possible, but you have signal track (yes with passing sidings but how long are they?), double stack height issues near the Michigan boarder assuming trains will continue West at the zoo and not turn south, and Amtrak in the way to the tune of 8 per day West of Battle Creek. If I'm proved wrong, then I'll post and say I am. Just my opinion.

I will say that now that E. Hunter Harrison is in charge at CP, it will be interesting to see if CP stays on NS - likely a low priority, but EHH was a COST CUTTER at CN, and CP on NS costs money! Of course, CP on CSX also costs money too, so who knows.

David Lang

[azimmer]

Is Amtrak a joke, or what?

Let's do the numbers. Each and every day, Amtrak will transport approximately 2000 people to Chicago and back. Are 2000 people worth the necessity to maintain over 300 miles of track? The answer should be more than obvious. Imagine I-94 from Detroit to Chicago carrying only 2000 people daily. We would just let it die -- and the same should be done for Amtrak.

Amtrak would only make sense if they had high speed trains running every 10 minutes, but that will never, never, never happen.

It's time to remove the life support. We are just continuing to apply CPR to a dying horse -- a horse that could never live on its own.