Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from scrap

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Saturnalia
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Saturnalia »

SD80MAC wrote:It looks like it could be moved on it's own wheels no problem provided it'll pass a brake test. I'd also like to see this engine preserved and would be interested in becoming involved if anything ever happened. I might just know of a place where it could be stored, too. :wink:
Coopersville & Marne! I think that would be a fabulous idea.

Maybe several museums & tourist railroads could come together to save the unit. Find a place to store it first, then maybe get it running again for use by the museums. It could make a neat loco for the GLC/SRI Passenger trains :wink:
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by bctrainfan »

From some other things i've read, and if it can be purchased for around $25K, and there was a place to park it, you're still looking at something like $50K all together....I'm sure some of our RR folks could give a better estimate of the cost, as well as some potential snags in the process....also, could you just rent some space on an unused industrial siding somewhere to park it temporarily?

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by 12Bridge »

The time the museums should have got together was 2 years ago when Waymore bought the engine. Its not a secret, they themselves posted on here with there contact information. Enough said.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Clay320 »

Can't help with getting the 25 grand, but if that was found another place to store it might be the TLE&W, they've just started doing car storage and I would imagine a deal could be worked where it could be stored at a reduced rate of sorts.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by iKJames »

Clay320 wrote:Can't help with getting the 25 grand, but if that was found another place to store it might be the TLE&W, they've just started doing car storage and I would imagine a deal could be worked where it could be stored at a reduced rate of sorts.
Unless it was somehow donated to the museum for them to take care of it.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by TrainWatcher »

To be honest, there are atleast 3 "RS" Alco's I know of that see a little preservation already from the groups they belong to. There is a preserved example, and more than one. Can we not just let her go? I mean the costs to get her even "blue carded" as she has been OOS for what, 2 years?, is going to cost more than just the regular purchase price, as well as getting her up to snuff to ship on LSRC as well as CSX. And recently D&M #10 was just moved to SMRS, so for those wanting a D&M locomotive "saved" she's headed for that process. Join the societies that have the Alcos: C&M and SMRS and help put some money into what already exists in collections and not "what could be saved". Honestly, the 2 Annie and the Rutland/TSBY Alco's are much more worth it than the 469. They are already owned and the groups can always use an extra hand. Just my $.02

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by GreatLakesRailfan »

TrainWatcher wrote:To be honest, there are atleast 3 "RS" Alco's I know of that see a little preservation already from the groups they belong to. There is a preserved example, and more than one. Can we not just let her go? I mean the costs to get her even "blue carded" as she has been OOS for what, 2 years?, is going to cost more than just the regular purchase price, as well as getting her up to snuff to ship on LSRC as well as CSX. And recently D&M #10 was just moved to SMRS, so for those wanting a D&M locomotive "saved" she's headed for that process. Join the societies that have the Alcos: C&M and SMRS and help put some money into what already exists in collections and not "what could be saved". Honestly, the 2 Annie and the Rutland/TSBY Alco's are much more worth it than the 469. They are already owned and the groups can always use an extra hand. Just my $.02

The only problem is, a solution like that makes sense and involves decisions made based on little or no emotion. This is a railfan forum where common sense and reality are routinely ignored while ignorance and bigotry (from both the right AND the left) are king. You have less chance of convincing people here to let go of their emotions for the 469 than you do of seeing mainline coal-fired steam engines become the locomotive of choice for North American Class 1 railroads by 2015. Ain't gonna happen.

On the other hand, I think James is right. Even if the economy is slightly better than it may have been back when Waymore first purchased the 469, very few of us on this board have the resources available to finance a purchase of the unit, let alone restore it to operational status again anytime "soon". Rather trying to save everything, we need to focus on the stuff that has already been preserved, in order to better preserve it for the future.
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Robert MacDowell »

hoborich wrote:I think many people would like to help, but have no idea what to do, or where to start. I have seen no mention of actual costs involved, in dollars, in any of these posts. All of the posts have been fairly general in nature. Can't do this. Can't do that. Would be too expensive. The average railfan, including myself, has no idea what is involved, where to start, or what it might cost, or who to call.
Correct. What this project needs most is Organizing. Somebody needs to do that. I have some boots on ground experience in this area, and in my opinion, this is achievable, we CAN get er done.

Why should we? I agree we usually should not, but this is a unique situation. Because even though railroad museums have over-collected nationally... They have grossly under-collected Michigan's unique railroad history. There is darn little left, and we can't afford to lose much more, or our Michigan museums wion't be able to tell Michigan's story. My dad has a story about a locomotive in every museum fwe have gone to. He sold compressors in the quarry where DM 10 ran, and himself ran the I-R diesel at Henry Ford. What are you going to show your grand kids... Photos?

This is not only a very representative D&M engine, it also represents the end of steam, as this is where diesels turned the corner from being just mainline units to being all purpose. It is not the first real road switcher, that was 466, but close as we are going to get, and this unit is more operable anyway.

There is clearly interest. If there is enough interest - let it happen. Do not impede. Each of us must do our parts. When the clarion call comes -- answer it if you will. Let's see what Michigan railfans are capable of!

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by NYCJIM »

Correct me if I'm wrong.... Didn't the 974 and 975 already got scrapped last year? could have sworn I saw pic's of the 975 being cut up in Alpena....?

As for saving the 469 you are correct and needs to be done. It would be nice if it could be donated for preservation by Waymore Power. A great place for it to go, would be back up north to Millersburg and place behind the D&M Depot the have recently restored. It would be like the 469 going back home sorta speeking.... just a thought. As for finding a place to store it, I might know a couple of places that might do it for free. I'll check with them and let you know this week.
Jim

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by conrailman75 »

My question is, how many RS2's are left in existance? Are there any preserved in museums or more hopefully still in operation?
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Saturnalia »

NYCJIM wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong.... Didn't the 974 and 975 already got scrapped last year? could have sworn I saw pic's of the 975 being cut up in Alpena....?

Jim
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See the video page for description...

974 was scrapped the day before 975. I just happend to see them cut up 975, if the switcher hadn't been moving around so late in the day I wouldn've gone to the yard until train time.
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Robert MacDowell »

Good news! The Southern Michigan Railroad Society's board met. The Society is eager to save #469 and provide a permanent home for it. Since SMRS is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, all donations toward this project will be tax deductible. A special fund has been set up, but hold that thought, because we would prefer you work through an online fundraiser, as it will make less office work for SMRS (and lets you watch as fundraising progresses!)

So, we have a destination nailed down. Now it's a matter of coordinating with owner, mover and donors.

SMRS has owned its railroad for 27 years, it now has a significant parcel of land for a future museum site, and the next big investment will be an IRM-style car-barn, to get equipment out of the weather.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by TrainWatcher »

Robert MacDowell wrote:Good news! The Southern Michigan Railroad Society's board met. The Society is eager to save #469 and provide a permanent home for it. Since SMRS is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, all donations toward this project will be tax deductible. A special fund has been set up, but hold that thought, because we would prefer you work through an online fundraiser, as it will make less office work for SMRS (and lets you watch as fundraising progresses!)

So, we have a destination nailed down. Now it's a matter of coordinating with owner, mover and donors.

SMRS has owned its railroad for 27 years, it now has a significant parcel of land for a future museum site, and the next big investment will be an IRM-style car-barn, to get equipment out of the weather.
Wow, that's awesome news. We're also going to need some Alco and diesel savy people as well for maintenance as well.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by MagnumForce »

Just what SMRS needs, more junk...

Sorry but this everything needs saved mentality is just ridiculous in my view.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by MagnumForce »

Had to come back to this yet again, the SMRS has how many rotting alcos they can't take care of now and want another? Ridiculous, meanwhile the general public thinks the place is an eye sore and a scrap heap and don't really want much to do with it.

Not everything deserves to be saved.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by CharlieX90 »

MagnumForce wrote:Had to come back to this yet again, the SMRS has how many rotting alcos they can't take care of now and want another? Ridiculous, meanwhile the general public thinks the place is an eye sore and a scrap heap and don't really want much to do with it.

Not everything deserves to be saved.

I agree. Can't save everything. But then some people think it is a crime to scrap something that is just rotting away.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by MagnumForce »

Meanwhile no one want to visit these places because they are perceived to be junkyards full of rusting garbage and high weeds.

Mind boggling.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Robert MacDowell »

MagnumForce wrote:Just what SMRS needs, more junk...

Sorry but this everything needs saved mentality is just ridiculous in my view.
...but admit it, you are knee jerking in the opposite direction. You are so appalled by the rust-fest at many museums that you automatically naysay ANY possible acquisition at any museum.

Save nothing???

I do sympathize with the sentiment though. Museums need to be selective. Smart museums have a collection policy, which guide them as to which items they should collect and why. It should be reasonable and consistent, and should not be about one guy collecting all his favorite stuff. So what is a reasonable collction policy for a Michigan museum?

Before the RS-2, there were diesel switchers ... and diesel mainline road engines, "covered wagon" multi-unit lashups. Local and branchline service stayed with steam as there was no reasonable diesel option. Switchers (and RS-1s) were too underpowered/slow, and 3-4 unit road engines were overpowered and had terrible sight lines for switching (consider that handheld radios did not yet exist.) But when Alco combined the FA powerplant and RS-1 sight lines... they had the diesel that could replace steam in any role - a true general purpose locomotive.

D&M was the first railroad in America to dieselize. They also were the launch customer for the RS-2. 469 is not the first RS-2 (466 was) but it was in the first order. it is the equivalent of the Juan T. Trippe among jumbo jets.

What would a reasonable collection policy say about that? Should D&M equipment be preserved by a Michigan museum? If so, which D&M equipment? Are RS-2's historically significant, or are they as unimportant as, say, a GP39-2? If they are important, which RS-2(s) nationwide are most worthy of preservation?

These are serious curator type questions. You talk as if every single piece of railroad equipment is equivalent. They're not.

As for SMRS's standard of care, I would be the first to say if I think they are off the rails. I am on the board of a truly world class railroad museum, WRM, and I go around and I look at a lot of other railroad museums. Most of them are pretty horrible in terms of operability (everything at SMRS has run in the last 10 years and everything was parked working). Most are also godawful in terms of collection - they have way way too much random junk that doesn't fit a sensible collection policy. Not an SMRS problem, their rather small collection actually fits a south Michigan museum of NYC lineage. The only thing out of place is the WM loco, and a South Shore car, but guess what, SMRS is the closest museum to South Bend that actually runs one. And what else would they run, Lackawanna coaches (like the San Diego museum LOL)? Yeah, some of the equipment is ugly as heck, but every museum is like that, and the only real cure for that is carbarns. And they're on track for that!

I'm not an SMRS guy. I support them because I think they have the right stuff to succeed. if they didn't, I would support someone else who did. I will get that carbarn built whether there's a 469 to go in it or not. If not, there will be empty space for something else. What else belongs there more?

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Typhoon »

Robert MacDowell wrote:The only thing out of place is the WM loco, and a South Shore car, but guess what, SMRS is the closest museum to South Bend that actually runs one.
Last I checked, they don't run the South Shore car, they pull it. There is a BIG difference between the two when talking about an electric interuban car.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by MagnumForce »

I think you are completely misunderstanding me, I never said save nothing, I said you can't save everything. There are a number of RS2's preserved around the country, heck 466 is still in White Pigeon and if you are going to preserve one that is the one, first off it is the first RS2, secondly it is operable. So when the time comes to worry about 466, what do you do then? You just got 469, now what?

On top of this, no location in Michigan has proved to me that it is capable of taking care of diesel locomotives in a museum setting aside from the Henry Ford Museum. SMRS surely does not fit the bill. If something has to go out of state to be preserved by an entity that knows what they are doing then so be it. Betting IRM is already looking at options with 466.

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