Scanners

[CNCSX1017]

Hey. I was wondering is a scanner necessary for Railfanning? I'm looking at one but I don't know if you need one or not!
Thanks

[AARR]

Hey. I was wondering is a scanner necessary for Railfanning? I'm looking at one but I don't know if you need one or not!
Thanks

Not necessary but they help to know cwhere the trains are vs. guessing and waiting.

[cbehr91]

If you want to know what's going on, what's coming and what trains you're seeing, then yeah definitely they're necessary. You can also learn quite a bit about railroad operations through radio conversations.

[pica]

Aren't the railroads suppose to be changing over to digital radios or something. So your traditional scanners are not going to work, are they?

[Saturnalia]

Aren't the railroads suppose to be changing over to digital radios or something. So your traditional scanners are not going to work, are they?

Eventually, but not much, if any, have done so yet.

While we're on the subject, will the communications by PTC systems but something we could use? I suppose they won't be audible, but perhaps something like an ATCS system?

I don't know anything about this sort of stuff, just kind of thinking aloud.

[Evan]

The railroads have been talking about going digital, but that's all its been is talk. That's been around for years. I'm not implying they won't, but I have a feeling it won't happen for a while.

[NYCMan]

The FCC set a timetable for all radios, not just railroad, to go from "wideband" analog (20 KHz) to "narrowband" analog (11.25 KHz). The mandated date was January 1, 2013. Now that all radios have migratated to narrowband analog, the FCC is expected to announce another timetable for all radios to migrate to very narrowband (digital 4 KHz). This is all mandatory, and will not be discretionary with the railroads or anyone else.

The AAR has set a digital standard called "NXDN", and as of May 2012 the AAR has a new channel plan to implement digital radio channels. Most railroads are getting prepared for the migration by updating their radio licenses to allow for digital emissions. Some have already implemented all-digital radio systems. One such large user is Metro North in NY/NJ. Most of the Class 1 railroad police have begun using digital.

Expect more and more railroad radio channels to do digital slowly but surely over the next 5 years. There presently is no scanner manufactured which receives the NXDN digital channels. So, unless some scanner manufacturer decides that railfans pose a big enough market share to build an NXDN-capable scanning receiver, once the railroads do go digitial, railfans will find themselves shut out from listening. Many municipal police radio systems are already digital, using the P25 digital standard. The market for P25-capable scanning receivers is large enough that scanner manufacturers produce them.

[brysonda]

NXDN radios are available. They cost quite a bit more than a scanner, especially including the necessary programming software and cable. However, they can work well for scanning purposes. Just be sure to lock out the transmit functionality.

[NYCMan]

Yes, NXDN-capable two-way radios are available made by ICOM and Kenwood. (ICOM is, IMHO, far superior of the two brands.) However, possession of a two-way radio without a radio station authorization issued by the Federal Communications Commission is a federal offense with hefty fines and possible imprisonment. So, if one buys a two-way radio, it is very important that the transmit capability be inhibited (turned off) by a competent radio technician and this fact documented so as to prevent possible legal problems down the road should one be found in possession of the two-way radio. Over the years, I have met several railfans who have acquired two-way radios and used them to communicate with passing trains, which is illegal. But, you can never tell a railfan like that anything, because they always know more and better than we railroaders know. (Retired here, after 43 years on the railroad.)

[brysonda]

Yeah, absolutely. Transmitting without a license is not only illegal, but would be potentially unsafe. No matter how much listening you do, your haven't been properly trained in the railroads' operation (current employees excepted). Transmitting on their frequencies may block important communications.

Transmitting on railroad frequencies is just as bad as trespassing on railroad property. Simply don't do it.

[cbehr91]

Aren't the railroads suppose to be changing over to digital radios or something. So your traditional scanners are not going to work, are they?

Traditional scanners, no, but hopefully by the time the digital switch comes (and I maintain this is a long way off, just by how much the railroads fought the narrowband mandate) Uniden and the other major scanner manufactures will be making scanners compatible with the digital system the railroads will be using.

[i995impalass]

Your Grand Rapids area railroads have been narrow band for almost two years.

[Standard Railfan]

Hey. I was wondering is a scanner necessary for Railfanning? I'm looking at one but I don't know if you need one or not!
Thanks

FYI there are a number of links to scanner feeds that members of this board have graciously established for those of us that are scanner challenged. Check out the Radio Feed section of the Railfanning Board at viewforum.php?f=19

[TomCat4680]

Hey. I was wondering is a scanner necessary for Railfanning? I'm looking at one but I don't know if you need one or not!
Thanks

Absolutely. Railfanning without a scanner is like watching a really good action movie with the sound turned off.

[hoborich]

Cost may be a factor for the railroads. Last I heard from a friend on the fire dept, the handheld digital radios are around $5000 each. They have to sign for them and are responsible for them if they get lost. A built in radio for the loco would be more.

[bctrainfan]

Yes, all this stuff is pricey. We made many people in scanner land unhappy when we switched to the statewide 800 system, and also encrypted all of the police radio traffic. (Unfortunately we also have a fair amount of reliability issues too! ) Hopefully the railroads wont go the encryption route, believe it does add to the costs and can cause technical issues.

[Raildudes dad]

800 mhz mobiles are over $3000 with a $500 annual fee. Most agencies with existing UHF or VHF have opted to stay with their existing systems and not switch to the statewide 800 system primarily due to cost (Cost isn't the only issue )

In the case of my employer, it was 250+/- new narrowband radios at $3300 = $832,500 plus $125,000 / year or about $70,000 for 250 new digital / analog narrowbanded UHF radios with no annual fee. it was a no-brainer for us to stay UHF. Our county Emergency Managment purchased a few 800 hand held radios for each local agency on UHF or VHF so we could communicate on the 800 system if we had to.

County Dispatch and the mobile command center both have a "block box" that allows them to patch all (UHF, VHF, and 800) together in an emergency.

[TomCat4680]

Cost may be a factor for the railroads. Last I heard from a friend on the fire dept, the handheld digital radios are around $5000 each. They have to sign for them and are responsible for them if they get lost. A built in radio for the loco would be more.

Yes, all this stuff is pricey. We made many people in scanner land unhappy when we switched to the statewide 800 system, and also encrypted all of the police radio traffic. (Unfortunately we also have a fair amount of reliability issues too! ) Hopefully the railroads wont go the encryption route, believe it does add to the costs and can cause technical issues.

800 mhz mobiles are over $3000 with a $500 annual fee. Most agencies with existing UHF or VHF have opted to stay with their existing systems and not switch to the statewide 800 system primarily due to cost (Cost isn't the only issue )

In the case of my employer, it was 250+/- new narrowband radios at $3300 = $832,500 plus $125,000 / year or about $70,000 for 250 new digital / analog narrowbanded UHF radios with no annual fee. it was a no-brainer for us to stay UHF. Our county Emergency Managment purchased a few 800 hand held radios for each local agency on UHF or VHF so we could communicate on the 800 system if we had to.

County Dispatch and the mobile command center both have a "block box" that allows them to patch all (UHF, VHF, and 800) together in an emergency.

In Michigan, CN Police is digital but not encrypted. 12261 on the MPSCS and every digital scanner can monitor them, I've picked them up several times from both Flint and Durand. CSX PD, NS PD, CP PD, Conrail PD and Amtrak PD are supposed to join it eventually too.

[brysonda]

FWIW the NXDN capable portable radios are only around $750. If you have a HAM license they can also be used for the 2 meter band.