Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
- justalurker66
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
With no trains people must rely on other transportation. The addition of trains gives an option but there is no requirement that people rely on the trains - the other forms of transportation they currently use remain viable. To shift people over from the methods they are using today to a new method would require the new method to be BETTER than today's option. Not better for society as a whole but better for the individual making the choice whether or not to use the new method.
A passenger train between Ann Arbor and Traverse City would be a better option for SOME people. It would not be a better option for all people. I do not believe that it would be a better option for enough people to be worth the expense of building it. Better would require travel times and service frequencies that match the demand for service. One also has to consider how potential passengers travel at both ends of the connection.
If I was in a my car somewhere near Traverse City and wanted to go to somewhere near Ann Arbor I could drive to the proposed Traverse City train station - wait for the next train - travel to Ann Arbor and be at the train station needing to find my way to somewhere near Ann Arbor without my car. Assuming there was adequate secure parking for my car in Traverse City and the train schedule matched my schedule how do I get where I really wanted to go without my car? I can only go to places withing the footprint of transportation available at the station in Ann Arbor. The opposite trip could be more challenging requiring adequate secure parking in Ann Arbor, a train to Traverse City that matched my schedule and additional transportation in Traverse City.
It is easy to fantasize about passenger rail connecting two cities but there are few passengers who want to visit the train station in the distant city. They want to go somewhere else - the train station is just on their way and without adequate additional transportation using the train becomes an obstacle to reaching their destination.
It is easy for the planners fixated on building a train between two endpoints to forget about the people who will travel on it. Often I see the connection issue turned in to dumping the problem on the passengers (it is their responsibility to get from train to destination) with minimal support (let's add a bus station at the train station - that solves everything!). Not quite. Other public transportation expands the service radius at the endpoint within constraints that do not apply to people who have their own transportation and both ends of a car trip down the high quality highways.
A passenger train between Ann Arbor and Traverse City would be a better option for SOME people. It would not be a better option for all people. I do not believe that it would be a better option for enough people to be worth the expense of building it. Better would require travel times and service frequencies that match the demand for service. One also has to consider how potential passengers travel at both ends of the connection.
If I was in a my car somewhere near Traverse City and wanted to go to somewhere near Ann Arbor I could drive to the proposed Traverse City train station - wait for the next train - travel to Ann Arbor and be at the train station needing to find my way to somewhere near Ann Arbor without my car. Assuming there was adequate secure parking for my car in Traverse City and the train schedule matched my schedule how do I get where I really wanted to go without my car? I can only go to places withing the footprint of transportation available at the station in Ann Arbor. The opposite trip could be more challenging requiring adequate secure parking in Ann Arbor, a train to Traverse City that matched my schedule and additional transportation in Traverse City.
It is easy to fantasize about passenger rail connecting two cities but there are few passengers who want to visit the train station in the distant city. They want to go somewhere else - the train station is just on their way and without adequate additional transportation using the train becomes an obstacle to reaching their destination.
It is easy for the planners fixated on building a train between two endpoints to forget about the people who will travel on it. Often I see the connection issue turned in to dumping the problem on the passengers (it is their responsibility to get from train to destination) with minimal support (let's add a bus station at the train station - that solves everything!). Not quite. Other public transportation expands the service radius at the endpoint within constraints that do not apply to people who have their own transportation and both ends of a car trip down the high quality highways.
- justalurker66
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
Is there a demand for any shared public transportation between Ann Arbor and Traverse City?
If so, can is that demand being met by other means than rail service?
If that demand is being met by other means is demand sufficient enough to support rail service?
I agree that the demand for rail service has not been proven.
Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
As I understand it there are to be stops between Ann Arbor and Traverse City. It's not just who wants to go between Ann Arbor and Traverse City, but rather who is willing to take the train between any two points on the line. I'm not convinced that makes is economically profitable, but it does add something to the equation.
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- justalurker66
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
Perhaps adding a fraction, but not a large fraction. The endpoint issues remain regardless of how many endpoints there are along the line. How do you get to the train? How do you get where you really want to go after you get off the train? Without good connectivity it might as well be a train to nowhere.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
On the plan they say they will stop in Holland, Durand, Owosso, Alma, Mt Pleasent, Clare, Cadillac, and then Traverse city. If they go to Petoskey. Then add Mancelona and Petoskey. They also want to expand to Detroit and Williamsburg/ Turtle creek casinojustalurker66 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:04 amPerhaps adding a fraction, but not a large fraction. The endpoint issues remain regardless of how many endpoints there are along the line. How do you get to the train? How do you get where you really want to go after you get off the train? Without good connectivity it might as well be a train to nowhere.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
Holland???? Might as well stop in Marquette too.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
I ment Howell sorry
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
Exactly. The reason Amtrak in Michigan is successful is because Chicago is a destination city. So much business, lodging, retail, sporting events, concerts, museums, parks, lake front, etc., just minutes from Union Station. Not to mention parking is very expensive and a pain at times. A passenger train to TC would never be anything more than a special excursion for specific events that happen infrequently.justalurker66 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:04 amPerhaps adding a fraction, but not a large fraction. The endpoint issues remain regardless of how many endpoints there are along the line. How do you get to the train? How do you get where you really want to go after you get off the train? Without good connectivity it might as well be a train to nowhere.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
And the only the thing that I can think of that is a big enough deal for this is the cherry festival…
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
A train from Ann Arbor to Traverse City can be viable BUT you need to run daily. Need a train to depart TC in the AM and Ann Arbor in the A.M. than return back each day. Need also local passenger service, bus, from the depot to get around town. Before all this happens we need to get a Detroit-Michigan City run on the CSX. Again daily service. Train leaves the end points in A.M., returns back in evening. Need to have trains meet in Lansing around 0800 or 0830 for State people who need to go to Detroit or Holland. Need to force State people to take train espically to Detroit.
This would open West Michigan to people from the East part of the State. Can be done and would only require maybe ten million or so to build or lenghting some passing sidings.
If the Governor gets re-elected she will be a lame duck Governor than she could work on shutting down Line 5 and gasoline will be ten dollars a gallon making the rail option look much better.
This would open West Michigan to people from the East part of the State. Can be done and would only require maybe ten million or so to build or lenghting some passing sidings.
If the Governor gets re-elected she will be a lame duck Governor than she could work on shutting down Line 5 and gasoline will be ten dollars a gallon making the rail option look much better.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
I think if A2TC work. This might open the window for the other routes under MDOT pockets like the coast to coast, Detroit to Toledo, Detroit to Bay City and if Amtrak expands the Wolverine to Tronto.KenB wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:24 pmA train from Ann Arbor to Traverse City can be viable BUT you need to run daily. Need a train to depart TC in the AM and Ann Arbor in the A.M. than return back each day. Need also local passenger service, bus, from the depot to get around town. Before all this happens we need to get a Detroit-Michigan City run on the CSX. Again daily service. Train leaves the end points in A.M., returns back in evening. Need to have trains meet in Lansing around 0800 or 0830 for State people who need to go to Detroit or Holland. Need to force State people to take train espically to Detroit.
This would open West Michigan to people from the East part of the State. Can be done and would only require maybe ten million or so to build or lenghting some passing sidings.
If the Governor gets re-elected she will be a lame duck Governor than she could work on shutting down Line 5 and gasoline will be ten dollars a gallon making the rail option look much better.
The 15 year old railfan from Michigan And the only one who believes in A2TC
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
I-96 already took care of that 60 years ago.
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- SD80MAC
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
If Detroit-Grand Rapids was a viable passenger route, it would already exist. I-96 is just too convenient.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
If none of this happened when people physically worked in offices prior to 2020, why are more passenger trains needed now? Let’s be honest, most people who can afford places in the Traverse City area can work from home so I expect less Detroit/TC commuting. (You no longer have to be back in Detroit on Sunday night to go into work physically on Monday)
- justalurker66
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
OK.
So Detroit-Grand Rapids-Michigan City? Seems like the long way around.
Have you done the math as to when the train would need to leave the endpoints to make such a meet in Lansing?
You are going to have enough of a challenge getting them to FUND it let alone ride it.
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
Fellas…why would anyone want to fund additional Amtrak trains When the engines don’t work half the time?
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
Exactly, and let’s not forget the engines the state will be using won’t be brand new either…LansingRailFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:36 pmFellas…why would anyone want to fund additional Amtrak trains When the engines don’t work half the time?
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
I am with you. I dont like those new charges. I rode from Lansing to Chicago once and they just looked ugly.LansingRailFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:36 pmFellas…why would anyone want to fund additional Amtrak trains When the engines don’t work half the time?
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Re: Study Time....again - A2TC commuter rail project
Looks don’t count, performance does, they have many flaws with their systems and what not.dalek ling wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:38 amI am with you. I dont like those new charges. I rode from Lansing to Chicago once and they just looked ugly.
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