Project Status

[azimmer]

I have not heard any news in quite a while about the status of two major proposed projects involving the railroads of southeast Michigan. One project is the construction of a large intermodal facility on the site of Livernois yard in Detroit. The other project is the so-called Jobs Tunnel that would dig a new rail tunnel from Detroit to Windsor and then use the old tunnel as a truck route.

The last bit of information that I picked up was that the environmental impact study for the intermodal facility has been completed. But that was about two years ago. Does anyone know what is happening with these projects? Have they been officially abandoned or is there still some hope for their eventual development?

A. Zimmer

[KenB]

Have not heard anything on the tunnel project. The intermodal project at Junction Yard is moving along. Envermental impat statment should be signod off on dec 9 now only need $501 million to do the work.
One item they may be done next year is the new connection from the WB MC main to the NB GTW at West Detroit.
This will allow the Amtrak trains to get onto the GTW at West Detroit instead of Vinewood saving about 10-15 minutes and keep a smoother traffic flow.
Go to the MDOT website under projects for more information.
KenB

[odave]

Michigan Radio mentioned the DIFT in their news update a couple of weeks ago. There's a short article on their website - it doesn't look like they have the audio.

Here's a link to the MDOT page KenB mentioned.

[David Lang]

What about that intermodal facility that some developer in Flint is trying to get going on some former GM property? What is the latest with that?

[AARR]

What about that intermodal facility that some developer in Flint is trying to get going on some former GM property? What is the latest with that?

I can't see Flint becoming an intermodal hub when Detroit has Livernois underway.

[hobojim]

Enlighten me please, but does Detroit really have enough traffic to support one or is this just another "revive Detroit" scheme.? By the time it gets up and running , Detroit may have dried up.

[AARR]

Flint will have the same trouble Detroit has...getting intermodal through Chicago in less than 24 hours. If they ever solve that problem you could see a lot more intermodal traffic in Detroit and across the CN line. It's much faster at this time to unload intermodal rail cars in Chicago and truck to Detroit. Many of the intermodal you see east of Chicago was unloaded in Chicago from a western railroad terminal and reloaded at the terminal of an eastern railroad . Yes, it can be that much faster than all rail movements.

[sd70accsxt700]

95% of the vans on the CSX in Detroit, is all stuff from the east, with the ocassional car for Chicago.

[MSchwiebert]

Detroit for CSX Intermodal is a container lane only. Here's a link from the CSXI webpage that shows their service matrix. http://www.csxi.com/?fuseaction=customers.matrix This would lead me to believe that whatever "conventional trailer" business CSXI gets in Detroit is Rubbered to Chicago (WB) or perhaps Cleveland (EB traffic)

[DLM]

CSX Detroit ramp is for export containers. No domestic containers. NS Detroit ramp offers no domestic service. CN does a little with Pacer containers. 99% of the 53' containers you see in MIchigan come from Chicago ramps. Same for most the 53' containers delivering west of Toronto. Most 40' contianers from Asia also come in over the Chicago ramps. The reason is transit time and cost. I route all my container shipments from Detroit, Flint, and Port Huron over Chicago ramps. Why a new ramp would be built in Detroit is beyond me unless it has to do with reconstructing a road or highway??????

[sd70accsxt700]

Are you sure? I know the traditonal term of domestic is inside the US. That being said, I interpert domestic to mean not going overseas. If my interpation is used aproxmatly one half of all CSX contaner shipments is domestic. All of Q131 and 132 is Texas and Mexico. Now like I said, if you interperat it to mean US only, then only the containers going to Texas are true domestic. Also dont know where they are comming from, but Q150 and Q151 some days carries a block of PacerStacktrain 53' containers, now those cant be international as they are limited to 40' and 20' containers. So there has to be some domestic, unless those are containers retruning from Mexico, via a diffrent route. So I guess your interpation of Domestice depends on if you count it going overseas or overboarder. Also when I said van trains, I meant all container train into and out of Detroit, most of us working the jobs just refer to them as van trains.

[azimmer]

DLM said: I route all my container shipments from Detroit, Flint, and Port Huron over Chicago ramps.

The DIFT planners are hoping that when/if the new container facility is built, you will then route all your shipments through Detroit. Will you?

In many ways, I suppose, the DIFT is a gamble, just like the Alameda Corridor in Los Angeles was a gamble. The fact is that all of the terminals in SE Michigan are operating at capacity and something needs to be done for future expansion. If the private sector remains unmotivated -- and they likely will -- then the government has to step in to create the infrastructure that could attract more business and build more jobs.

If the DIFT were to be built and fail (just like the Alameda Corridor has failed in a lot of ways) I suppose that the ultimate blame would have to be placed on the short-sighted business leaders who seem to be resistant to risk and change. IMO, the DIFT is an excellent idea.

The DIFT Purpose and Need document on the MDOT web site (link above) is worth being read. Among other things it describes in some detail the state of rail operations in Detroit at the present time.

A. Zimmer

[AARR]

In many ways, I suppose, the DIFT is a gamble, just like the Alameda Corridor in Los Angeles was a gamble. The fact is that all of the terminals in SE Michigan are operating at capacity and something needs to be done for future expansion.

Detroit's a dieing city. Anyone see it picking up? Manufacturing is leaving the state. However, amazingly, the state's population is holding steady. Maybe we'll need greater intermodal capacity for inbound goods.

BTW - I don't think CN's Moterm is operating near capacity. I believe it handles about a 1/3 the intermodal it was designed too. Anyone know if that's the case?

[pfs]

In many ways, I suppose, the DIFT is a gamble, just like the Alameda Corridor in Los Angeles was a gamble. The fact is that all of the terminals in SE Michigan are operating at capacity and something needs to be done for future expansion.

Detroit's a dieing city. Anyone see it picking up? Manufacturing is leaving the state. However, amazingly, the state's population is holding steady. Maybe we'll need greater intermodal capacity for inbound goods.

BTW - I don't think CN's Moterm is operating near capacity. I believe it handles about a 1/3 the intermodal it was designed too. Anyone know if that's the case?

I would not classify Detroit as dying. I would say its time for an autopsy.


Moterm: From my observations I do agree, it is not operating anywhere near capacity. I also think a lot of the traffic there is for one customer, a disproportionate amount of containers are from one shipping entity.

[hobojim]

If the DIFT were to be built and fail (just like the Alameda Corridor has failed in a lot of ways) I suppose that the ultimate blame would have to be placed on the short-sighted business leaders who seem to be resistant to risk and change. IMO, the DIFT is an excellent idea.

???? Could you amplify on this statement. By using the standards of safety, transit time and unblocked crossings it appears to be a big success. I have never read or heard anyone call it a failure.
Jim

[DLM]

Domestic to me is defined as the US, Canada, and Mexico.

I stand corrected. The only CSX 53' lane offered out of Detroit is to Los Angeles. Based on the price, it is cheaper ($200) and faster (2 days) to truck to Chicago. This makes it a tough sell to my customers. Since Pacer Stacktrain sells directly to the auto companies, I'm sure they have given them a very good rate that I do not have access to.

I can move 40's domesticly. Again price and transit usually make Chicago a better option for my customers. I do have one 40' move over Detroit to Calgary on the CN. Very slow routing. 12 to 14 days. But very cheap.

OTR trucks are cheaper out of MIchigan to all points east of the Mississippi except Florida.

Most of what goes via Detroit is headed for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. Med Shipping is a big user of the Detroit ramps.

With automotive dying in Michigan and no new companies moving in, why is a new ramp being built? Maybe we can use it to export Canadian garbage to Iran.

[azimmer]

Could you amplify on this statement. By using the standards of safety, transit time and unblocked crossings it [Alameda Corridor] appears to be a big success. I have never read or heard anyone call it a failure.

Check this link: http://transportation.northwestern.edu/ ... Report.pdf

Failure may be too strong a word but the success of the AC seems to have fallen short of its projections. Of course, the DIFT may also fall short of its projections and that's why I state that it is a gamble, but, IMO, the gamble is necessary.

The DIFT consolidation is more than just a bigger terminal. The DIFT will also improve rail transit times through the Detroit area and decrease rail-to-truck transfer times and truck access times. If businesses decide to seize on these improvements then things will definitely be better.

To be honest, in my view, business attitudes in SE Michigan are at least 50 years behind the times. Most enterprises are controlled by veritable dinosaurs and that accounts more than anything else for the lackluster response that has been given to the DIFT.

The DIFT foresees the need up to the year 2025. Most business executives can't see beyond
the current quarter.

A. Zimmer

[azimmer]

Based on the price, it is cheaper ($200) and faster (2 days) to truck to Chicago. This makes it a tough sell to my customers.

Has your company performed a highly detailed cost analysis to get an accurate fix on the break-even point? Would your accounting staff even know what to do? From my, admittedly limited, experience in dealing with private enterprise in this area, I would strongly doubt it. Most businesses are content with rough approximations just to get by. But there could be many effective ways to get that price down below that $200 differential.

As for poor transit times, that's one area that DIFT hopes to correct.

A. Zimmer

[intocable83]

Kinda of like the intermodal site they were all talking about for Owosso. That plan obviously fell through the cracks.

[Fred]

Understand the project is on hold acc't the state of Michigan doesn't have the money and the local neighborhood folks have pitched quite a female dog about it. Add that to the economic state of The Big Three and you gotta wonder about the project.
I do know the Q-131 operates 53' containers from Detroit to Laredo, Texas and several Mexican destinations.
Q-150 operates both 40' & 48' containers south to Florida and both the East coast as well as the West coast from Long Beach up to Seattle.
NS 21n operates Detroit to Chicago with traffic for several California ports as well as Seattle.
NS 20v operates Detroit to the east coast.