Freight Trains and Traffic Tickets

[azimmer]

Some time ago, I was driving down John Kronk avenue just north of Livernois yard in Detroit. A long CP freight was westbound but was stopped for some reason and blocking both Lonyo and Central, which are the major north-south roads in that area. As I drove further down John Kronk, near the head end of the train, I saw a Detroit police car parked on the south side. A police officer was walking back from the CP locomotive to the police car.

I can't be sure but I believe that the train crew was issued a citation for blocking both crossings for too long a time period. If that was correct -- and why else would the police pay them a visit? -- then who pays the ticket? Does CP Rail settle the fine or is the engineer at fault?

One would think that the engineer, who only follows the dispatcher's orders, would be innocent. But many times at Delray Junction I would see a long CP freight, that had just come from the Detroit-Windsor tunnel, blocking Dearborn Avenue for a long time. The reason? As the CP freight pulled into the CSX Rougemere yard, the engineer would stop the train to allow the conductor to disembark and throw a few switches. Rather than hurrying to get the job done quickly, the conductor would slowly walk from the train (a few hundred feet between at least two switches) and then slowly walk back. The engineer would also keep the train motionless for a long time rather than quickly start it rolling, and all the while the cars are piling up on Dearborn Avenue. In this case, I would think that the train crew would deserve to pay the fine from their own pockets.

A. Zimmer

[Stitch]

I doubt he was giving him a ticket. Maybe someone broke into one of his cars. There might have been tresspassers on the tracks. Just saying whatsup....

[Fred]

The law regarding blocking road crossings has been changed, there is no time limit anymore. The police officer might have been asking the crew if they knew how long they might have the crossings blocked. In my 42 years on the railroad I have never seen a Detroit policeman be concerned about a breakin on a frt train unless he was accompanied by a rr cop as well. As for regarding tickets, when it was unlawful to block a crossing all tickets issued were paid by the railroad.

[RRTTF]

In Michigan, as it is in almost every state, it IS still "illegal" for a train to block a crossing for more than 10 minutes. Many cities and municipalities have also adopted various laws pertaining to railroad operations.

However, the Federal courts have struk down these types of laws as being unconstitutional. Interestingly, it was here in Michigan that the Federal courts were involved and made that decision in the matter of CSX Transportation v. City of Plymouth.

Despite the Federal courts having clearly spoken, there still are incidents where smaller municipalties either fail or refuse to recognize that their law/ordinance is illegal and attempt to enforce it. I seem to recall a shortline in the thumb area that had such a problem a couple of years back, but well subsequent to the Federal decision, and the locomotive engineer was taken into custody due to his train having blocked a crossing for more than 10 minutes. Although my memory of the incident is faded, I seem to recall that the joke was on the local police, as once they took the engineer into custody, there was nobody that could move the train, so the crossing remained blocked for hours.

The United States Congress has made it clear that states and local governments cannot regulate train operations. That is exclusively the domain of the Surface Transportation Board and the Federal Railroad Administration.

[azimmer]

The United States Congress has made it clear that states and local governments cannot regulate train operations.

Do you think that they would abuse the privilege?

One day I was out railfanning and I happened upon a rare sight (at least for me). A CSX locomotive was running from Oak Yard in Detroit down the industrial spur that parallels Fullerton Avenue and then heads southeast deeper into the city. I had never photographed this particular line before and so I decided to follow and get some shots.

It must have been lunch time. The locomotive stopped just before the Wyoming Avenue crossing, and with the crossing signals flashing both the conductor and driver stepped out to walk over to the convenience store for a snack. They were gone for about twenty minutes while the signals continued to flash, the bells continued to sound, and the cars continued to stop. (There are no crossing gates at this location but most cars would still stop and wait -- they obviously saw the locomotive only a few feet from the pavement.)

Here is a photo of the stopped train with no one aboard. The convenience store is to the left out of the picture.

http://home.comcast.net/~frank.peters/C ... itMI_2.jpg

What is not apparent are the flashing signals and the activated red traffic signal.

Here is a photo of the train moving again after disturbing the traffic flow for over twenty minutes:

http://home.comcast.net/~frank.peters/C ... itMI_6.jpg

I don't know what the real story was, but it seems to me that the crew exhibited a total disregard for the auto traffic. In other words, they thought that they owned the road.

A. Zimmer

[elliot98SS]

The village I live in police can issue a speeding ticket to a engineer....but they mail that in. Not sure who pays I would have to ask someone about that. Some pot head got run over by a locomotive about 6 years ago and the village ordinance is 40mph for rail traffic.

[AARR]

I don't know what the real story was, but it seems to me that the crew exhibited a total disregard for the auto traffic. In other words, they thought that they owned the road.

Maybe they were concerned about vandalism if they parked anywhere else hwere they were not in plain site. Of course one person could have gone while the other stayed with the engine.

[hoborich]

Maybe they were concerned about vandalism if they parked anywhere else hwere they were not in plain site. Of course one person could have gone while the other stayed with the engine.

It still would have been stopped on the signal circuit, whether one or both left the engine.
It's been many years since I left the railroad, but I can remember our trainmaster going to court on tickets a few times. But I don't know what came of it. I just remember him going to court.

[R.E.A.P.E.R.]

Obstruction of vehicular traffic; offenses as separate violations; penalty;
allocation of fines.
Sec.391

• (1) A railroad shall not permit a train to obstruct vehicular traffic on a public
  street or highway for longer than 5 minutes at any 1 time, except the
  obstruction shall not be considered a violation under the following circumstances:
  (a) If the train is continuously moving in the same direction at not less than
  10 miles per hour for not longer than 7 minutes.
  (b) If the railroad can show that the incident occurred as a result of a
  verifiable accident, mechanical failure, or unsafe condition.

NOTE: A decision on March 21, 2002, by the Sixth Federal Circuit Court
of Appeals ruled that issuing citations to railroad companies for this
section is unconstitutional. Therefore, no enforcement action is to be
taken under subsection (1). ((The section above))

• (2)A railroad shall not permit successive train movements to obstruct vehicular
  traffic on a public street or highway until all vehicular traffic previously
  delayed by such train movements has been cleared.
  
  (3) A railroad company shall not permit its employees to allow the activation
  of active traffic control devices at a railroad grade crossing for more than 2
  minutes if there is no intention to move a train or track equipment through
  the crossing within 20 seconds to 60 seconds after the activation of the
  devices.
  
  (4) Each offense under this section shall be a separate violation punishable by
  a fine of not more than $500.00 unless the railroad is willfully, deliberately,
  and negligently blocking vehicular traffic and then the fine shall be not more
  than $1,000.00 and the costs of prosecution.
  
  (5) All fines civil or otherwise collected by a local unit of government in excess
  of $10,000.00 annually from the enforcement of a local ordinance substantially
  similar to this section shall be allocated as follows:
  (a) Fifteen percent shall be retained by each local unit of government for costs
  of enforcement of the ordinance.
  (b) Eighty-five percent shall be deposited in a railroad grade crossing safety fund.
  The revenue collected in this fund shall be used solely for railroad grade
  crossing safety projects in these local units of government.

[esprrfan]

The village I live in police can issue a speeding ticket to a engineer....but they mail that in. Not sure who pays I would have to ask someone about that. Some pot head got run over by a locomotive about 6 years ago and the village ordinance is 40mph for rail traffic.

Mailed back to the city with alot of theses smilies
Plus a note telling them that "their city imposed limit" is good for the same thing in the bathroom that comes on a roll, and they can do the same with it.

The Village can ISSUE all day long, getting them to hold up in a court, getting them paid are as likely as it snowing 20 dollars bills.

[CAT345C]

Arn't most rr crossings on Railroad Property? So isn't the road going onto railroad property?

[esprrfan]

As the CP freight pulled into the CSX Rougemere yard, the engineer would stop the train to allow the conductor to disembark and throw a few switches. Rather than hurrying to get the job done quickly, the conductor would slowly walk from the train (a few hundred feet between at least two switches) and then slowly walk back. The engineer would also keep the train motionless for a long time rather than quickly start it rolling, and all the while the cars are piling up on Dearborn Avenue. In this case, I would think that the train crew would deserve to pay the fine from their own pockets.

A. Zimmer

Ok now a few notes about what's observed above.
First, most railroads have RULES prohibiting getting off moving equipment, thus the reason for stopping.

Secondly, that's the smart way of getting switches I will always walk and line my switches for the move when their only a couple hundred feet apart ESPECIALLY WITH A HEAVY TRAIN. It's actually faster than getting the first one, having him pull the train up, stop so I can get on travel the few hundred feet, stop so I can get off and get the next switch. By me getting both switches and walking back to the train once we are on the move we keep going. Often if I'm going to getting a number of switches I'll have the engineer follow me at walking speed provided that's the route we're going. On the railroad a distance a few hundred feet is nothing. Also your not suppose to foul a switch that not lined for you thats why you stop well back of it atleast with trailing point switches.

Third, As to the conductor walking slowly on the uneven rocks what would you suggest that he run switch to switch? Would you be willing to replace his paycheck if he move at "your desired pace"and got hurt? With NS "Safety is a CONDITION of EMPLOYMENT" you get hurt you CAN find yourself hurt and FIRED.

Fourth, As to "rather than quickly start it rolling" . All I can say is starting starting a train moving is A LITTLE more involved and delicate then putting your car in drive and your off.

Fifth, As to "the train crew would deserve to pay the fine from their own pockets." Why, because I'm working how I'm required to? Should not then firemen be fined when they block off a street putting out a fire? Cars at a crossing have the ability to turn around.

Perhaps the railroad should revoke the easement that permits a crossing there, that way no cars would have to wait anymore as the crossing was closed. Crews normally do all we can not to block crossings. I've stopped moves in the clear that involve a crossing road crossing so police and fire equipment could cross. I've stood in the rain for like 10 minutes so a guy coming a block a way in a power scooter chair could get a cross because I knew he'd be trapped as we made our double I even let the 184 know to take it a lil easy to my crossing so they wouldn't block him.

Bottom line is I work in a manner that keeps me safe so I get to go home and provide a income to take care of my family. Those are the things I look to protect everyday, not seeing that Bob the builder has the fastest route to his coffee. When I have crossing blocked I work as fast as I SAFELY can to clear up, but I will not risk my life or my familys income so someone that couldn't give a rats ass about me, have a lil faster trip point A to point B.

[esprrfan]

We once were hit by the detector out at 282 with a "critical alarm" for dragging equipment so we stopped the train blocking about 4 crossings in Northwood. Well on my way up from the rear I noticed a Northwood cop taking a few pictures, then he he started my way as I got closer. When we met up I was prepared for the whole blocked crossing thing. As I started in as to why, he cut me off with a "Aw hell I don't care about that" Seems he's a buff and he was just getting some shots of the BNSF/TFM power. After a quick cab tour, he was on his way and so were we.

Oh yeah, the defect was one of the airhose bands that broke and was dragging.

[azimmer]

Bottom line is I work in a manner that keeps me safe so I get to go home and provide a income to take care of my family. Those are the things I look to protect everyday, not seeing that Bob the builder has the fastest route to his coffee. When I have crossing blocked I work as fast as I SAFELY can to clear up, but I will not risk my life or my familys income so someone that couldn't give a rats ass about me, have a lil faster trip point A to point B.

Would you reconsider if you knew that an ambulance trying to get a heart attack victim to the nearest hospital was being held up by your train? I have personally seen an ambulance held up at a railroad crossing and it must happen on a lot of occasions.

The solution is proper urban planning. At critical points where a lot of rail activity, such as switching, occurs, there should be grade separation of road and rails. Port Huron, for example, has finally found the money to build an overpass over the west end of Tappan yard that was causing a lot of frustration for motorists -- and money is alway the issue.

Detroit happens to have excellent grade separation from east to west. Only at certain points, such as Delray Junction, does the rail bed descend down to street level. The traffic level on Dearborn Avenue, however, probably would not justify that an underpass be constructed.

I would like to see more railroad activity and not less, but the plan should always include a way to integrate road and rail so that there are no problems.

A. Zimmer

[esprrfan]

Bottom line is I work in a manner that keeps me safe so I get to go home and provide a income to take care of my family. Those are the things I look to protect everyday, not seeing that Bob the builder has the fastest route to his coffee. When I have crossing blocked I work as fast as I SAFELY can to clear up, but I will not risk my life or my familys income so someone that couldn't give a rats ass about me, have a lil faster trip point A to point B.

Would you reconsider if you knew that an ambulance trying to get a heart attack victim to the nearest hospital was being held up by your train? I have personally seen an ambulance held up at a railroad crossing and it must happen on a lot of occasions.

A. Zimmer

Well that depends on the situation. As for knowing the reason for the ambulance it's a moot point, they don't inform us of the route for active responses. Trains can't just sit in a yard for fear they may block a emergency vehicle. Anyhow;

A) If I'm switching and see a emergency vehicle approaching the crossing I would, and have cleared up the road for him. Everyone I know at work would do the same. Even givin the scenario of pulling in a yard, I'd flag him around. If though, we're already blocking the street when it gets there there's nothing that I can do in a timely manor to help him. I can't shove back blind to clear up, how do i know that some kid isn't crossing behind my train. And like we talked about already trains aren't known for their 0 to 60mph speed. So in this sense yes it would change my work

B) If were pulling in and the ambulance come along say 25 cars deep of a 150 car train we on the head end will never know it. Going over a crossing looking back I can see about 10 cars, once the powers over a crossing its a waiting game. Even seeing a emergency vehicle arriving at a crossing as we do, since we'd never stop in time its actually faster if we just get out of his way. Here it wouldn't

The EMS crew decides to wait or turn around, it's their call.
But just as some additional info there are some routes that are KNOWN EMERGENCY ROUTES it's in the timetable or bulletins that theses crossing are not to be blocked for ANY reason. There are also a host of other routes that crews pass on to others to avoid blocking like in small towns you never block all the crossings. There are 100's of times that you don't see like when we hold up out of town so as not to block anyone but at somepoint we do have to move.

In Clyde Oh we put in and pull 75 car grain trains that cut the town in 1/2. I call the police prior to starting to let them know so they can adjust their patrols. They even come help us cross a busy 4 lane highway plus I let them know if they need the highway to call me (my personal cell phone) or send a car out so I can clear up. When working here it's like a 2 hour process to pull, since we have the town blocked I work it as non stop like the other crewmembers on the job. Do I clear up just to let "normal" traffic by, no I made that mistake once, you play hell getting anyone to stop so you can resume working.

Over all most crews are mindful of emergency vehicles and do what they can to help. Ask any EMS which give them more "headaches" trains or personal vehicles. I know which they'll tell you.

[hobojim]

The village I live in police can issue a speeding ticket to a engineer....but they mail that in. Not sure who pays I would have to ask someone about that. Some pot head got run over by a locomotive about 6 years ago and the village ordinance is 40mph for rail traffic.

Makes me wonder if the illage vidiots think a train at 40mph is less destructive than one traveling 50mph?

[esprrfan]

The village I live in police can issue a speeding ticket to a engineer....but they mail that in. Not sure who pays I would have to ask someone about that. Some pot head got run over by a locomotive about 6 years ago and the village ordinance is 40mph for rail traffic.

Makes me wonder if the illage vidiots think a train at 40mph is less destructive than one traveling 50mph?

Just cut's down on the distance that you have to walk to get the pieces.

[GR Ron]

As one whom has sat behind a train waiting, watching the cloud of smoke in the sky get bigger and bigger, it is frustrating, but that is life. May sound cold, but we can only do what we can do, it is no sense getting all stressed over issues we have no control over. When I leave the station, I look at the tracks, if I see a train, or hear one, or hear of one via raido, I reconsider our repsonse route, usually trying to head for the tail end of the train.

I get more frustrated being out or enroute to a false alarm when a second call comes in where my resources are truly needed.

All stay safe out there.