Rubber Railroad Ties

[azimmer]

With the railroads always complaining about costs, it would seem that reducing maintenance expense would be a major concern. Yet everytime I see trackwork being done, the replacement ties are always the same old creosote-treated wooden variety. The newer ties that are made from recycled plastic and rubber are supposed to last THREE TIMES as long as the wooden ties. The newer rubber ties therefore would save a lot on maintenance costs. Why aren't the railroads using them?

Another alternative would be to employ concrete ties, but, as I understand it, the concrete material would require difference track equipment. Rubber ties, however, could use the same equipment as for wood.

AZ

[AARR]

Concrete ties are used.

IMO cost is the deciding factor for using the traditional wood ties.

[MDH]

The newer ties that are made from recycled plastic and rubber are supposed to last THREE TIMES as long as the wooden ties. The newer rubber ties therefore would save a lot on maintenance costs. Why aren't the railroads using them?

The railroads aren't dumb (despite the sometimes outward appearances) so I'd assume they did the financial analysis and figured that wood ties are still cheaper despite the more frequent replacement cycle.

[MSchwiebert]

Steel Dynamics is also involved with a composite tie http://www.primix.com/index.asp. With Steel doing what it did last summer price wise, I can't imagine that it would be cost competitive with wood even factoring in a longer life span.
While concrete ties have their place, they do have their drawbacks, they install & attach differently, are harder to handle due to weight, are more sensitive to frost/thaw cycles. and are more easily damaged by dragging equipment etc. (for example, we've all seen ties that have marks from dragging equipment or wheel flange marks from low speed derailments etc. On a concrete tie, those impacts would necessitate the tie being replaced while a wood tie can absorb much more 'punishment' of this sort.) Concrete ties tend to be used in areas where the seasonal change is more consistent and there wood ties are not readily available.

[geeps]

Think about it in other contexts. If you can buy 100x 1$ Mp3 player (considering it works almost as good as the other.) and beat the hell out of it, and buy a another one, why buy 1x 100$ Mp3 player.

Concrete ties I think they use on busy main lines, where you have lot of trains beating the hell out of wood ties. Continually having to replace ties, means your slowing your traffic down and that may cause the company to loosing money. Concrete ties may be more suited because the line is a big money maker that out weighs the costs of expensive ties. So a line that branches off of the mainline that doesn't see a lot of traffic, may be more suited to just keep replacing the cheap wood ties.

[CSX_CO]

Think about it in other contexts. If you can buy 100x 1$ Mp3 player (considering it works almost as good as the other.) and beat the hell out of it, and buy a another one, why buy 1x 100$ Mp3 player.

Concrete ties I think they use on busy main lines, where you have lot of trains beating the hell out of wood ties. Continually having to replace ties, means your slowing your traffic down and that may cause the company to loosing money. Concrete ties may be more suited because the line is a big money maker that out weighs the costs of expensive ties. So a line that branches off of the mainline that doesn't see a lot of traffic, may be more suited to just keep replacing the cheap wood ties.

Umm...no. The lines across northern Indiana see just as much traffic as any line in the south, but they have wood ties.

Its a climate issue between concrete and wood. The moisture in the south plays hell on wood ties. Concrete is better suited down there. Up here, the freeze and thaw cycles make wood more appealing. Ties are a regional product (different mixes of the creosote) and so there isn't one big tie plant that produces everything. There are big ones, but there are a lot of smaller ones spread throughout.

Practice Safe CSX

[azimmer]

The railroads aren't dumb (despite the sometimes outward appearances) so I'd assume they did the financial analysis...

No, they aren't dumb. But conservative perhaps? I would be inclined to say "Yes."

Not just the railroads, but most American businesses are managed by people who have their heads stuck 30-50 years in the past. These newfangled materials, in spite of their demonstrated benefits, are probably beyond the comprehension of the people in charge.

The benefits are not just imagined. They have been proven at, among other places, the FRA testing grounds in Utah.

Once the awareness of these products grows, they will become more accepted. But how does one increase awareness among these dinosaurs (a.k.a. business managers)? It will take more than just salesmanship alone.

AZ

[Raildudes dad]

The railroads aren't dumb (despite the sometimes outward appearances) so I'd assume they did the financial analysis...

No, they aren't dumb. But conservative perhaps? I would be inclined to say "Yes."

Not just the railroads, but most American businesses are managed by people who have their heads stuck 30-50 years in the past. These newfangled materials, in spite of their demonstrated benefits, are probably beyond the comprehension of the people in charge.

The benefits are not just imagined. They have been proven at, among other places, the FRA testing grounds in Utah.

Once the awareness of these products grows, they will become more accepted. But how does one increase awareness among these dinosaurs (a.k.a. business managers)? It will take more than just salesmanship alone.

AZ

Excuse me, I resemble that remark.

I haven't taken the time to look up the details but one western Class 1 (BN or BNSF?) made a big investment in concrete ties a number of years ago. It tumed out a few years later the manufacturer (Lone Star?) had a durability issue. The RR got stuck with a lot of short life concrete ties. That pretty much ended the use of concrete ties for a while.

Of course the concrete ties at Pueblo held up well. The ties furnished were built under strict QA/QC conditions with materials that under went strict QA/QC. Mass production ties don't get the same scrutiny .

My view on new technology, let them experiment on someone else's budget, not mine. When it's demonstrated in real life and independently of the manufacturer, it's as good or better, then I'm ready to buy. In my younger days, I listened to a salesman on a project. It cost over $100,000 to fix in less than15 years (life expectancy of the product was supposed to be 50 minimum).

I remember when the first concrete precast crossings were brought out. I watched the first one in the GR area go in on Ivanrest on CSX in Grandville. I went and looked at it. My question, how is it going to be repaired when it starts deteriorating. (All crossings will deteriorate regardless of material.). I told my boss, we're not allowing them if we have any say. (Been successful so far except 68th in Cutlerville on the NS). Go look at Ivanrest now that it's started to deteriorate. Good thing it's an industrial street instead of a major thorough fare.

Back to timber vs concrete. If the number crunchers could do the true numbers, timber probably isn't all that cheap. I've done enough tie replacement to see the variability in wood ties probably allows for some short life as well. But how do you know the last batch didn't get 40 or 50 years - no date nails any more . The other disadvantage to concrete is you can't mix timber and concrete. There isn't much call for 100% new ties so in most cases, so continuing timber is cheaper.

Simply put, conservatism isn't all bad and most managers do make the most cost effective decisions.

[Norm]

The benefits are not just imagined. They have been proven at, among other places, the FRA testing grounds in Utah.

HMMM,

Didn't know they had moved it out of Pueblo, Colorado.