Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

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SD80MAC
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by SD80MAC »

RailCanon wrote:If this actually happens on the timetable they are proposing, I would expect to see some older F40s (which there are PLENTY of still around) purchased and set up for the Operation. The Music City Star in Nashville, TN started up in this method.
On the otherhand, GO Transit is/was retiring most of its older F59PH fleet in favor of the new MPI units. Those could be an option as well, at least in the short term.
One of the reasons GO is retiring the F59PH's is that many are starting to sucumb to cracked frames.

All this stuff is just smoke and mirrors to me. When I see the equipment show up on the property and the actual trackwork begin, I'll beleive it.
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by Shorthaul »

Chrisracer8903 wrote:I agree Gregg. On another note as far as the double trackage goes, Depot Town to the Amtrak Station in Ann Arbor would most likely be double tracked. Main reason is that if one train is occupying the terminating station (Ann Arbor in this case), the next train cannot enter the same station until the prior train returns to a meeting point somewhere in the system (Like Depot Town).
What if the old interchange siding in Ann Arbor became the "turning point" for the trains? One westbound could work the station, then pull west of it, into the clear, letting the next train work the station. This seems much more viable than the amount of double track that you are proposing. Since this is just a start-up, I can much more easily imagine a few short sidings being placed into service instead, at least for the time being.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by Racer »

No, because the other train would still need to wait at the next signal while the first train is boarding/unboarding passengers. After the boarding, the train would be pulled off to the siding to open the "block" for the next passenger train to come into Ann Arbor. The 2nd train would have a problem because there would be no location to pause the 2nd train to let the 1st train return towards Detroit. The only exception is the Main which is not a good idea to keep a train on for 30-something minutes if you have 6 Amtraks and NS traffic, too. These people have done the math, plans, and know what they are going to do. We need to just sit back and watch what happens...not worth speculating on something we cannot change and will find out soon.
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by ns8401 »

2 train sets starting at opposite ends and meeting in wayne would never have to have double track, or sidings for that matter.... each set would simply be able to make two trips in each direction and there you have the four trips each way, much cheaper to pass on the existing double track. There is NO way they will be double tracking Ypsilanti to Ann Arbor, what would be the need? There aren't any trains to worry about between 351 and 353 and B34 (ALL WB). The commuter train starting off in A2 would have to meet them on the double track, but otherwise as long as they use the double track wisely, it shouldn't be a huge problem. The complication is the rusty rail rule on either 1 or 2 (I forget which) between Wayne and Ypsi.
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by Shorthaul »

ns8401 wrote:. The complication is the rusty rail rule on either 1 or 2 (I forget which) between Wayne and Ypsi.
I'm sure that there is a way to pursuade NS to run B34 on the rusty rails for awhile. This should be done at chelsea as well, I see no reason why NS isn't doing it. I don't really think that it would take that many passes over the rust to remove most of it.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by msurailfan »

I know this is a long way out and there's a lot of optimism involved in this, but I was looking through Freep.com for info about the commuter rail service and found this file that outlines a total revamping of SE Michigan travel.

http://www.freep.com/uploads/pdfs/2009/ ... report.pdf
(see pages 21-27 for the outline)

Again, majorly optimistic and laid out over the next 25 years, but if this actually came to fruition, I think Detroit and the entire SE Michigan area would be much better off and maybe we could get out of the "worst city in America" title. The only addition I would like to see added to the plan would be Detroit-Lansing commuter rail, and probably Ann Arbor-Lansing commuter rail. With those additions, the two major universities and the state's biggest city would all be connected. Think it would be a great thing for the state, would probably promote more traffic into the city from the suburbs, which would promote more business. Again, all wishful thinking but it would be a great thing to see our city turn into something like Chicago.

Also: I know it's an old proposal so don't flame me for that. I'm simply saying it would be great if something like this happened. Phase 1 already seems to be here....

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by RRTTF »

Lots of dreaming, and lots of consultants are getting rich or have gotten rich writing these wonderful reports. But, how many times before has something like this been proposed and died? There used to be a Detroit/Ann Arbor commuter train, and it, too, died. More of yours and my TAX DOLLARS being wasted on foolishness! NS will get a pile of money for "playing along." And, come on guys, the price they will likely pay for the WORN OUT Chicago Metra equipment, they could have had NEW built just as easily.

And... I hear tat we are going to have a MagLev running at 275 MPH between Detroit and Chicago before 2010 year end, too!

Janet Granholm needs to fire everyone at MDOT, and then she needs to resign! THAT might just save our state!

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by j32885 »

Here's the thread that RRTTF is refering to: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16271

Anyway back to the topic at hand here...

I believed the last time the Michigan Line had Commuter Rail was back during the NYC/PC days. SEMTA (SMART) only took over the Commuter Rail on the Grand Trunk Western from Pontiac-Detroit, and it was very short lived. This time around GLC would be the operator.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by Shorthaul »

msurailfan wrote:I know this is a long way out and there's a lot of optimism involved in this, but I was looking through Freep.com for info about the commuter rail service and found this file that outlines a total revamping of SE Michigan travel.
http://www.freep.com/uploads/pdfs/2009/ ... report.pdf
(see pages 21-27 for the outline)
NICE!!!!! I hope that this kind of thing will happen, but I have my doubts. I can only imagine how badly we will need public transportation (and someday, electric railways) when the economy starts coming back, because oil prices will start to rise much more dramatically. Currently, our public transportation is the laughingstock of the first world. A dutch exchange student I know laughed for 10 minutes when I explained to her how pathetic Amtrak (and most american public transportation) is. I just hope that the USA can get more of this stuff implemented before a MAJOR oil crisis happens, although it is the american way to forge blindly ahead until we run into a wall.
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by ns8401 »

j32885 wrote:Here's the thread that RRTTF is refering to: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16271

Anyway back to the topic at hand here...

I believed the last time the Michigan Line had Commuter Rail was back during the NYC/PC days. SEMTA (SMART) only took over the Commuter Rail on the Grand Trunk Western from Pontiac-Detroit, and it was very short lived. This time around GLC would be the operator.
The commuter rail started under PC (I think) and lasted until 1980 or 1981 under CR (Amtrak operated).
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by Typhoon »

RRTTF wrote:Lots of dreaming, and lots of consultants are getting rich or have gotten rich writing these wonderful reports. But, how many times before has something like this been proposed and died? There used to be a Detroit/Ann Arbor commuter train, and it, too, died. More of yours and my TAX DOLLARS being wasted on foolishness! NS will get a pile of money for "playing along." And, come on guys, the price they will likely pay for the WORN OUT Chicago Metra equipment, they could have had NEW built just as easily.

And... I hear tat we are going to have a MagLev running at 275 MPH between Detroit and Chicago before 2010 year end, too!

Janet Granholm needs to fire everyone at MDOT, and then she needs to resign! THAT might just save our state!
The Metra equipment is far from "worn out." It has around 25 years of service left in it and am sure that it cost far less than brand new equipment.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by John Ryan »

Typhoon wrote:The Metra equipment is far from "worn out." It has around 25 years of service left in it and am sure that it cost far less than brand new equipment.
You do realize this equipment was designed in the late 1940's and delivery started in 1950, do you not? If it has 25 years of service life left, as you claim, the cars will be retired when they are 85 years old. Raise your hand if you want to be riding in an 85 year-old commuter car.

Metra got rid of them. In addition to being "old," they lack serious safety and accessibility features. Freight cars are banned from interchange when they are 40 years old, but Michigan is making a major investment in passenger service with 60 year-old passenger cars. These cars do not have collision posts and are prone to catastrophic telescoping in the event of a collision with another train. They have high floors and narrow vestibules, both serious impediments to ADA accessibility. In the aforementioned article, the Mayor of Ypsilanti states that most people don't get a Cadillac or BMW as their first car. The problem with this logic is first-time drivers don't get an old jalopy with no airbags, no seat belts, and a metal dashboard either.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by John Ryan »

Conrail Jon wrote:All this stuff is just smoke and mirrors to me. When I see the equipment show up on the property and the actual trackwork begin, I'll beleive it.
AMEN TO THAT.

I've been following these projects (WALLY and E-W) since Federated Railways announced that they'd have the WALLY service up and running in three months and for less than $3M. We all know how realistic that was. I would treat current announcements the same way.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by ns8401 »

John Ryan wrote:
Typhoon wrote:The Metra equipment is far from "worn out." It has around 25 years of service left in it and am sure that it cost far less than brand new equipment.
You do realize this equipment was designed in the late 1940's and delivery started in 1950, do you not? If it has 25 years of service life left, as you claim, the cars will be retired when they are 85 years old. Raise your hand if you want to be riding in an 85 year-old commuter car.

Metra got rid of them. In addition to being "old," they lack serious safety and accessibility features. Freight cars are banned from interchange when they are 40 years old, but Michigan is making a major investment in passenger service with 60 year-old passenger cars. These cars do not have collision posts and are prone to catastrophic telescoping in the event of a collision with another train. They have high floors and narrow vestibules, both serious impediments to ADA accessibility. In the aforementioned article, the Mayor of Ypsilanti states that most people don't get a Cadillac or BMW as their first car. The problem with this logic is first-time drivers don't get an old jalopy with no airbags, no seat belts, and a metal dashboard either.
You do realize of course that most of Metra's fleet is made up of cars with a similar design, right? I mean I see where you're going but..... Using ancient passenger cars in commuter service isn't a new idea..... I ride the Rock Island district pretty often and I can tell you that the cars they use there have very little difference as far as I can tell with the ex-Metra cars.
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by TrainWatcher »

We all know that the TC Commuters were pulled. There were around 12 already hanging in Owosso, and a cut of 15-20 Cars near Cohoctah. Has anyone been near Cohoctah to see if those were also moved to Owosso for rebuiliding for this service. But again you run into the motive power problem. I like the F40 Idea, that actually might work.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

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ns8401 wrote:You do realize of course that most of Metra's fleet is made up of cars with a similar design, right? I mean I see where you're going but..... Using ancient passenger cars in commuter service isn't a new idea..... I ride the Rock Island district pretty often and I can tell you that the cars they use there have very little difference as far as I can tell with the ex-Metra cars.
Yes, Metra also operates other bi-level cars. They may look the same on the outside, but the things that count aren't always visible. You have an issue with stainless vs. carbon-steel underframes, collision posts, and wider, more accessible vestibules. Keep in mind that no other operator has identical equipment currently in service. Federated has been offering these cars on the lease market for at least three years, and no one has taken them up on their offer. At a time of expansion, new starts, and record ridership, every other operator has either bought new equipment or rebuilt former NJT single-level equipment.

(There are two exceptions. Music City Star in Nashville has refurbished Metra equipment, but it is a somewhat different design that allows for easy ADA access. Metra also sold cars to VRE that were used for several years, then sold back to Metra. Metra is in a true budget and capacity crunch. If they thought that these cars were still of use to them, they would have gotten them back too.)

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by MSchwiebert »

The key to buying a first car is a reliable trouble free set of wheels that won't cost too much $ when the inevitable accident occurs. To extend this to the ex Metra cars, - they're of a reliable time proven design that if the service doesn't work out - the money outlay was not very much.

(and I have driven cars with metal dashes, seat belts or power brakes - and did not feel any less safe...)
John Ryan wrote:
Typhoon wrote:The Metra equipment is far from "worn out." It has around 25 years of service left in it and am sure that it cost far less than brand new equipment.
You do realize this equipment was designed in the late 1940's and delivery started in 1950, do you not? If it has 25 years of service life left, as you claim, the cars will be retired when they are 85 years old. Raise your hand if you want to be riding in an 85 year-old commuter car.

Metra got rid of them. In addition to being "old," they lack serious safety and accessibility features. Freight cars are banned from interchange when they are 40 years old, but Michigan is making a major investment in passenger service with 60 year-old passenger cars. These cars do not have collision posts and are prone to catastrophic telescoping in the event of a collision with another train. They have high floors and narrow vestibules, both serious impediments to ADA accessibility. In the aforementioned article, the Mayor of Ypsilanti states that most people don't get a Cadillac or BMW as their first car. The problem with this logic is first-time drivers don't get an old jalopy with no airbags, no seat belts, and a metal dashboard either.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by J T »

MSchwiebert wrote: (and I have driven cars with metal dashes, seat belts or power brakes - and did not feel any less safe...)
Whether or not you personally didn't feel any less safe is irrelevant, the fact is, they WERE less safe than today's cars.
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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by MSchwiebert »

While that may be true, many drivers think those extra devices make them invincible and drive like it.....

J T wrote:
MSchwiebert wrote: (and I have driven cars with metal dashes, seat belts or power brakes - and did not feel any less safe...)
Whether or not you personally didn't feel any less safe is irrelevant, the fact is, they WERE less safe than today's cars.

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Re: Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail

Unread post by John Ryan »

MSchwiebert wrote:The key to buying a first car is a reliable trouble free set of wheels that won't cost too much $ when the inevitable accident occurs. To extend this to the ex Metra cars, - they're of a reliable time proven design that if the service doesn't work out - the money outlay was not very much.
"Reliable, time-proven design." No, no, no. Just because something looks similar on the outside does not mean it is identical on the inside. The cars we are dealing with are the first-ever order from Budd. Designed by Budd and CB&Q in the 1940's, they were delivered in 1950. There were several other incremental car orders through the 1950s, all of which incorporated changes and design improvements. These cars were used to develop a "reliable, time-proven design." But they themselves are the orphans, not the result.

Interestingly enough, you've waltzed into the crucial issue here. SEMCOG and MDOT are trying to start a commuter service, and it's quickly becoming obvious that the people at the planning office are learning as they go. When other cities start commuter service, they have a dedicated Authority to oversee finance, planning, and operations. We don't have that here, just a patchwork of government organizations with everyone from the state to the bus people in Ann Arbor having some sort of role. Normal procedure is to start with a study that says ridership will support a service. You take your study to the federal government and apply for "New Start" grants. With that seed money and matching local dollars, the Authority can negotiate with the freight railroads, acquire equipment, and contract for infrastructure and service.

What we don't have is a study that says enough people would ride it, so we're not getting federal "New Start" dollars. In fact, the Ann Arbor-Detroit line was turned down for ARRA stimulus funding, indicating federal planners are taking a dim view of how things are developing. So, MDOT and SEMCOG are going around, hat in hand, trying to raise the $60M to $80M to startup service for Ann Arbor-Detroit and $30M for WALLY. And, in the general theme of doing things backwards, they have signed a contract with Federated Railways to provide coaches and cab cars, even though they have no formal, binding agreements with the freight railroads to operate this service, no locomotives lined up, no contracted operator lined up, and no total cost accounting for ROW and signal upgrades. Heck, they haven't even agreed on a lease rate for the rolling stock with Federated, even though they are spending $6M on refurbishing the cars.

What we have is a service where there's no proven demand, with antique equipment, where riders have to transfer to busses at the endpoints to actually get anywhere. The danger here is that by doing this the "Southeast Michigan" way, with everything backwards and half-baked, that the result will be such a failure that it will kill the potential for any real, properly-planned service in the future.

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