Chevy Volt Production Shutdown

[firemedic54]

So...getting back to the original question...sounds like no effect to rail.

[pudgy]

Calling the the Volt an electric car would be like calling a modern locomotive an electric locomotive.

I wasn't aware that a locomotive could run on just the traction motors without the diesel engine running. Is that the case?

http://akronrrclub.wordpress.com/tag/locx-1005/

Genset locomotives can run without their diesel engines running at low speeds, I believe. I'm not very familiar with most of them, but the loco in the link can run strictly on battery power at speeds around 4mph pulling 4-5 cars for up to 2 miles I believe. It is apparently no longer located at the CVSR. Interesting loco to operate. It took some getting used to. Only ran it twice, it felt like running a city bus on rails...lol

[Robert MacDowell]

This is an Email we got at my work this past week... Yes I know I work for 1 of the Biggest Competitions, with VW Diesel's, but this information is correct.

No, it is definitely NOT. It is wrong, it's past wrong. I'd call it intentionally lying. You decide.

Cost to operate a Chevy Volt

Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.

Uh-oh. He's not a scientist. He's not in the accuracy business.

For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

'It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph.

Implying that he drove it 60 mph steady state cruise? Not mechanically possible. That mileage reflects hard hard driving. There is a knack to driving a Hybrid, Ford found a little education can increase numbers 33% or more.

Anyway the whole point of the Volt is for everyday use. Most people commute <20 miles each way and take long trips only occasionally. Those folks will run electric at almost all times, and that's what the car is designed to do.

Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.

That's totally ridiculous. He implies you have to recharge it. The whole point of the Volt is that you don't. You recharge because electricity is cheaper than gas.

The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.
I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.

NO HE DID NOT. It's not mentioned because it's on your electric bill. 11.6 cents is about right. Or 3 to 5 cents if you get a special meter for your car and charge at night. I'll correct his wrong figures in green.

Oh, and he's claiming 25 miles for 16 kwh or 0.64 kwh/mile. EPA rates the car at 0.35 kwh/mile. Getting HALF of EPA estimates is not mechanically possible unless he's doing something really really weird. But let's be charitable and correct to 0.5 KWH/mile.

16 kwh 12.5 kwh x $1.16 per kwh $0.05 per kwh = $18.56 $0.62 to charge the battery.
$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 2.5 cents per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.
Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.
$3.19 $?????? over the next 10 years per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 $??????? per mile.

Gas will hold forever at $3.19/gal? That'd be nice.
He got the math right on that one, $3.19/gal ---> $15,000 fuel.
At $4.80/gal. ---> $22,500 fuel.
Volt electric mode: 2.5 cents a mile x 150,000 miles = $3750 fuel. win

So Obama wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 time as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.

A-HA! Highlighted in red is the motivation for the obfuscation.

I'm not even going to touch the political questions that he's trying to argue. I'm just pointing out that a political wag wrote a fake technical report as an arguing point. VERY BAD SCIENCE.

[SD80MAC]

......Do you even read what you write? Wow, someone is biased.

[Robert MacDowell]

Calling the the Volt an electric car would be like calling a modern locomotive an electric locomotive.

I wasn't aware that a locomotive could run on just the traction motors without the diesel engine running. Is that the case?

Yes, if there's a large battery that can provide traction power. Here is an example of such.
http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/ ... &k=HKR2X3T
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2919880708/

It is a hybrid electric locomotive. The two modes are battery-electric and trolley-electric. There is no engine. It had about 21,000 pounds of nickel-iron batteries in it. When on trolley wire, it would recharge the batteries. It is reputed to be able to work an 8-hour shift entirely off battery, working down in the copper mine pit on temporary track which didn't have trolley wire.

Four were made, all four went to museums. Subsequently one was scrapped by a museum that didn't care.

There is a smaller battery locomotive from Brooklyn Transit at the Indiana Railway Museum in French Lick.

Genset locomotives can run without their diesel engines running at low speeds, I believe. I'm not very familiar with most of them, but the loco in the link can run strictly on battery power at speeds around 4mph pulling 4-5 cars for up to 2 miles I believe. It is apparently no longer located at the CVSR. Interesting loco to operate. It took some getting used to. Only ran it twice, it felt like running a city bus on rails...lol

Strictly speaking, "Genset" locomotives have a number (typically three) of modules containing a smaller diesel engine. The control computer then decides when to start and throttle those engines based on what you're doing. A hybrid locomotive (Green Goat etc.) is a variation on that concept, where one or more of the diesel modules are swapped out for a module full of batteries. Obviously there has to be at least one diesel module. The computer sorts it all out.

[sd70accsxt700]

Wow I am lost! Its a electric car that you charge, but you dont charge?

[Robert MacDowell]

Wow I am lost! Its a electric car that you charge, but you dont charge?

Yeah, I know. Lots of people are lost. And I know the facts having watched this field for 20 years but I'm not so good at getting them across.

Here, think of it as an evolution on the Prius and Ford Escape hybrid. If you have a Ford Escape hybrid, you can't plug it in. It doesn't have a plug.

A lot of people think that's a shame, since the Escape can go several miles strictly on battery. So they added plugs to theirs, just a battery charger to top off the battery. They always leave the house topped up. It doesn't work all that well, because the Escape isn't designed for that.

The Volt IS.

If you never plug it in, you have a car that's no better than a Prius. However if you plug it in, you can save some real money on your daily commuting. My back-of-napkin puts that at saving about a dollar every 10 miles compared with running on gasoline. Assuming you get the right meter with the nighttime rate.

The point is to have the freedom to do what you want. Plug, don't plug, drive across the country if you want. You have two ways to buy fuel and one technical limitation on the cheap kind of fuel. That's it.

[J T]

Calling the the Volt an electric car would be like calling a modern locomotive an electric locomotive.

I wasn't aware that a locomotive could run on just the traction motors without the diesel engine running. Is that the case?

Yes, if there's a large battery that can provide traction power. Here is an example of such.
http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/ ... &k=HKR2X3T
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2919880708/

Oh, so this is a special example and not your everyday Joe "modern locomotive" that AC60W mentioned. Got it.

[UncleRaul]

How about an electro-motive car, minus the battery? I've always wondered if this would be more fuel-efficient, esp. with a diesel engine. It could be a cheaper way to squeeze more miles out of a gallon of gas (or diesel).

[AARR]

Frank Beckman (WJR Radio) was interviewing ??? (former GM boss) about Volt. Former GM boss said they did not expect to sell many Volts but was using it to transition to the next generation of cars as a loss leader. It was also built to meet rising gas mileage standards. In otherwords Government is forcing auto companies to build cars destined for failure.

[Mark F]

I've been told that 1st responders have been told not to use the Jaws of Life on a Volt if the driver is trapped after an accident. Apparently there is a high likelihood of electrocution due to some type of battery located under the seat.

[NoviRailfan]

"In otherwords Government is forcing auto companies to build cars destined for failure."

The Big Three killed themselves by not having enough fuel efficient models when gas prices blew up over $4 in 2008. You can blame it on government mandates but they would be fools not to continue to pursue technology that moves them from being so vulnerable to spikes in gas prices.

[Garry K]

One thing that never seems to get mentioned are the special expenses of buying and using an electric/hybrid vehicle. First, you pay more up front for the "privilege" of owing a yuppie status item, then after a few years you'll have to pay half the cost of a new vehicle just to get the batteries replaced. Not to mention you'll get nicked for a "battery disposal fee" even though they'll recycle all of the components of the batteries, much like the "oil disposal fee" even through they clean and recycle the oil. Yes, ALL batteries have a finite life. On deep-cycle batteries like in electric vehicles, I'm betting most of them go bad in 3 years, 5 years tops. So there goes all of the savings over driving a gasoline powered vehicle.

I only have to commute 4 miles one way to work, so I suppose I would buy an electric vehicle for the commuting if they were around $8,000. But for $30,000 to $50,000? No way! It would take 100 years to recoup the "savings."

I also hate the way the government is trying to force us all to drive around in tiny little boxes. That may work for some, but not for me. I have a band, and need to haul PA equipment, so I need a mini-van. And the newer minivans and SUVs keep getting smaller, making it harder to fit all my gear inside the newer vehicles. Other folks also have reasons for driving larger vehicles, handymen, etc. Let the market decide.

Garry K

[SD80MAC]

Umm, yeah about the batteries. Toyota has been making hybrids for 10+ years, and there's only been one case so far of a battery needing to be replaced.

[Cinderpath]

I only have to commute 4 miles one way to work, so I suppose I would buy an electric vehicle for the commuting if they were around $8,000. But for $30,000 to $50,000? No way! It would take 100 years to recoup the "savings."

I also hate the way the government is trying to force us all to drive around in tiny little boxes. Let the market decide.

Garry K

-The "Market" has decided, with China and India buying 18 million new cars a year, all needing a fresh tank of gas, meaning YOU and ME will soon be paying $5-$6 a gallon for gas. If you can afford $150 fill ups, great, nobody is forcing you into anything. The one thing nobody has mentioned is that FORD, Toyota, Honda, VW, BMW, Mercedes, will all also be planning on building their own version of the Volt, and billions in R&D are going into this. The reality is that they know something many people are not prepared for: a dramatic increase in fuel prices that are coming as world oil consumption rockets in places like China, India, Brazil, Russia. Personally I think the Volt and electric cars are great: The coal miners in WV, and employees of DTE and Consumers Energy did not fly planes in the WTC on 9/11, why on earth would you want to cling to your old ways and make these people richer, not to mention, Electricity jobs are American jobs and won't be outsourced.

Out of curiosity how many responding to this have actually ever driven a Volt?

[Saturnalia]

Here is my beef with the volt: it's development was federally funded. If the market wanted the car, GM would've put toward the money. It was a case of spending more money for political gain....and it's the money I put into govt as taxes hoping that we'd all benefit from...but we all don't.

[Cinderpath]

Here is my beef with the volt: it's development was federally funded. If the market wanted the car, GM would've put toward the money. It was a case of spending more money for political gain....and it's the money I put into govt as taxes hoping that we'd all benefit from...but we all don't.

Nissan got Federal money for the Leaf, Boeing gets money from the Military, Japanese Gov. develops R&D for their companies , Pfizer gets Gov money for pills, I don't need them until they save my life, even if the the "Market" didn't need it at the time. Was there a market demand for tax dollars to be spent to put a man on the moon? Frankly I'm not surprised people aren't pissed off about the billions in tax breaks oil companies get for "development", that you and me are paying for in higher taxes for ourselves, even when they rake in profits in the billions. And the price goes up. I love how we want free markets, but when gas is all of a sudden $5 a gallon, then we don't like it. It takes R&D and it takes time, the Volt is a 1st step. Frankly, I'd rather give my money to Consumers Energy, than Saudi Arabia.

[NoviRailfan]

"Here is my beef with the volt: it's development was federally funded. If the market wanted the car, GM would've put toward the money. It was a case of spending more money for political gain"

It was? What federal program funded the Volt and what political gain was it trying to achieve for GM?

[ns8401]

"Here is my beef with the volt: it's development was federally funded. If the market wanted the car, GM would've put toward the money. It was a case of spending more money for political gain"

It was? What federal program funded the Volt and what political gain was it trying to achieve for GM?

As far as I know there was no federal money involved as the Volt was under development pre 2009 bankruptcy. MQT, you don't pay any taxes yet do you? I wouldn't think so at the age of 13.

[etmccaus]

"Here is my beef with the volt: it's development was federally funded. If the market wanted the car, GM would've put toward the money. It was a case of spending more money for political gain"

It was? What federal program funded the Volt and what political gain was it trying to achieve for GM?

As far as I know there was no federal money involved as the Volt was under development pre 2009 bankruptcy. MQT, you don't pay any taxes yet do you? I wouldn't think so at the age of 13.

And pre-Obama Administration, for that matter.