NS Michigan Line

[CharlieX90]

39E does not work Livernois. 331 does the Livernois and Rouge work. 39E takes care of the Monroe Warner work when needed. On the northbound side,38E works Livernois,332 takes care of the Monroe and Rouge set offs.

39E usually only works Toledo if they have a 63T on the head end,which as of lately,the 63T has been running on its own out of Wayne.

Thanks Charlie, I knew one of them did it but I always flip my symbols...

Alot of times,over half of 38E's train goes to Livernois.I have seen them drag 630 axles of train there and leave with 40 cars for Wayne. Picks up in fall and winter when the salt starts booming.That is a major piece of traffic out of Livernois.

[Racer]

Picks up in fall and winter when the salt starts booming.That is a major piece of traffic out of Livernois.

That should be the Detroit Salt traffic that was once ran as unit train 60V. Does anyone know if they still operate that?

[PerRock]

Don't know, Amtrak ridership on the Michigan trains is way up, even through the crappy economy, wonder if its getting anywhere near paying for itself, at least on these lines? And its been getting good political and economic support, just look at the high-speed push, and the pretty new stations like ours here in Battle Creek!

Rumor continues that NS would be happy to get out of the Michigan Line business, but it does seem like selling the line and just keeping the freight rights would have significantly lowered their costs, so who knows? It would be cool to see one of the shortlines operating it though!

And maybe that CP rumor has something to it. Looks like a good route on paper. Doesnt seem like working around 8 Amtraks that only run in the daytime would be that much of a problem. Maintaining the tracks for high speed passenger while also running a lot freight traffic is probably a bigger issue, and someone has mentioned clearance problems for double-stacks somewhere on the west end. Cant really see much advantage to just going to K'zoo and turning south on GDLK just to end up back on NS track in Elkhart anyway.

With railroads, like government, nothing they do would greatly surprise me!

The Michigan Line IS the most direct rail route between Detroit and Chicago.

If CP wanted to pay, and it would likely be in the BILLIONS, they could re-install double track on the Michigan Line. My guess is that they would operate seperately from Amtrak. Keep in mind that freight trains are far heavier than Amtraks, so the freight trains would DESTROY to 110mph track. I see this options as too costly, although if CP shifted EVERYTHING off their origional transcon, I guess it would make more sense (but not very much).....

And NO, the Wolverine doesn't pay for itself. Neither does the Blue Water or Pere Marquette. Heck, Amtrak as a company can't even make money on food service! [They're being questioned by Congress on this, having food service profitable was mandated by Congress in the 1980s]

When it comes down to it, no mode of Human transportation beyond Walking (and arguably other forms of simple human-propelled transport) breaks even. The governments of the world dump a lot of cash into the Roads, Airports, Airlines, Passenger Rail, etc. None of it really breaks even. Sure there are Airlines, Bus companies & Transit Authorities out there that claim that they're making a profit. However when you step back and look at the w wider picture, if said bus company (for example) were to pay for the upkeep of the roads it runs on & bus stations it stops at, they simply wouldn't be making a profit & wouldn't be able to either. The Question comes down to, does the government want to invest in Passenger Rail the same as it's investing in it's Roads & Airways. Most countries do invest in their RRs, usually by turning all the tracks in the country public & leasing out travel rights to various companies.

peter

[Fred]

When I left working Livernois in 2009, both 38E & 39E worked there on the way to & from Wayne. When I worked at river Rouge in 2010 NS 331 & 332 operated out of Oakwood & worked at River Rouge. I believe it is still that way today.

[CharlieX90]

When I left working Livernois in 2009, both 38E & 39E worked there on the way to & from Wayne. When I worked at river Rouge in 2010 NS 331 & 332 operated out of Oakwood & worked at River Rouge. I believe it is still that way today.

It is all the same besides 39E,which as i stated does not work Livernois.

[Fred]

I stand corrected. NS 331 now comes out of Oakwood with cars for livernois after which he then picksup the Elkhart traffic and heads back south stopping at River Rouge to pickup their Elkhart traffic. Northbounds #332 sets out at Rouge & terminates at Oakwood via Jct Yard Sec while #39e operates thru South Rec Yard setting out at Livernois before continuing thru yard to Townline & then on to Wayne.

[railohio]

Parsons Brinckerhoff Wins On-Call Contract for Detroit to Chicago HSR Construction (PDF)

[j32885]

The Michigan Central (CR-NS Michigan Line) is has been in transition for many years. Back during the NYC-PC era, the line was a busy route for trains traveling to and from Chicago-Michigan-Ontario-New York.

During Conrail was when the line began to diminish. The Ontario portion the Canada Southern, was sold off to both CN & CP. Route became redundant, because it parallel other Canadian railroad routes.

Then Conrail put the through traffic went to the Lake-Shore Michigan Southern (The Water Level Route) which kept all freight business in U.S. The Michigan portion was then scale down. Double track became single track in many places. Conrail abandon the Michigan Airline which used to go Niles-3 Rivers-Jackson. Many trains would take this route to bypass K-Zoo and B.C. to get to Elkhart.

Then the CR Split between NS & CSX happen, the line would lose even more freight traffic. Portions of the line would get sold off to various groups: Amtrak, Watco, Adrian & Blissfield, and now MDOT.

Would I like to see the Michigan Line make a comeback? I sure do.

With MDOT owning most of remain trackage here’s what might happen…Prediction/Fantasy

Adrian & Blissfield: A new player to the Michigan Line will now handle all freight operations between BC-Jackson-Wayne. ADBF and NS will interchange at Wayne Yard.

Amtrak: All The usual suspects, now with new equipment require for HSR. They will run New Buffalo-Niles- KZoo-BC-Jackson-AA-DBN-DET. (Maybe see some new Amtrak International Wolverine thru service to Canada & New York…)

Canadian Pacific: They own portion of the Michigan Line which connects the Detroit River Tunnel to Canada. (It would be nice to see CP Rail trains on the MC line. Probably will keep the current deal in place with NS and run trains to CHI over the Wabash to the LSMS. Maybe if the Michigan Airline was rebuilt again…or maybe more double tracks will do…)

Grand Elk (WATCO): Will continue to operating freight trains over the Michigan Line between KZoo-BC. No freight service west of K-Zoo because of Amtrak. GDLK and ADBF will interchange at Battle Creek.

MiTrain: New Michigan Line commuter rail service, with rehab Metra equipment. Diesel power is still unknown. They could be operating out of Willow Run Yard. They will run Jackson-Grass Lake-Chelsea-Dexter-AA-Ypsilanti-Wayne-Inkster-DBN HGTS-DBN-DET.

Norfolk Southern: Will continue operating freight trains over the Michigan Line, now it will be just be between Wayne-DBN-Detroit. NS and ADBF will interchange at Wayne Yard.

[M.D.Bentley]

REMEMBER that the NS OWNS EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO THE FREIGHT TRAFFIC NOW AND FOREVER. Or until they transfer or sell them. And what about Conrail regaining control ? Better scenario ?

[GTW6401]

NS also owns the outdated signal system on the MI line that always seems to delay trains whenever im riding to Chicago.

[ns8401]

NS also owns the outdated signal system on the MI line that always seems to delay trains whenever im riding to Chicago.

That's the 1987 installed system that got its designer fired supposedly, it never worked right for CR or NS. The NYC era one worked much better and would have only required deactivating half the signals when they single tracked but alas they had to replace the whole thing instead.

[PriorrightsConrail]

I'm glad to see how people think it's perfectly OK to just piss away my job on a whim. How about if I suggest that we take your job and give it to someone with less experience who will work for 50-75% of what you did, and on top of that you now have to drive 60-100 miles ONE WAY to go to work because that is where you are now able to hold a job. And you will do it because starting all over with a new company on the bottom of the seniority and vacation roster doesn't sound too appealing. If there were any jobs to be had because every other company in your vicinity decided to hire people with less experience for less money. Or maybe you do the smart thing and move closer to your work location. Now you have made an impact on the local economy. Instead of the car dealers in Jackson getting your business, you buy vehicles in Toledo. You buy groceries in Elkhart instead of Kalamazoo. Pay taxes to Monroe county instead of Jackson County. The shortline lovers always seem to forget that the more money you make the more money you have to spend and the more you pay in taxes which all support the local economy. Unless you're a multi-millionaire/billionaire and can afford a good accountant to exploit loopholes and hide your money for you. But that's OK, we don't need decent paying jobs in Michigan anymore.

[j32885]

Work has resume over at the NEW Dearborn train station site. There is also a "Slow Order" put in place on the Michigan Line between CP Mort-Wayne Jct. Haven't seen any MOW equipment or Ballet equipment yet.

[skrail]

prior rights... AMEN BROTHER....I buy groceries in Elkhart, I buy gas and diesel...in ELKHART!!!
It gets old hearing how great things are now that NS is outta Kazoo, Gr and here...
When i hear it, I too explain the financial effects I try to administer!!!
My boys have 4 yrs of school...then, Ill probably up root and move...
Railfans get mad when I donna share info...or donna throw hats and trinkets to them now...
I ask them to leave me alone...After driving 75 miles one way to Elkhart, i really have no time
for arm chair railroading....Keep worshipping the ex NS....or what ever its called...Im not bitter,
just realistic now....PS. IT sucks knowing yer company let ya go, or leased or whatever they say.yet, NS dispatches GDLK, Gives them favor imn my yard ELKHART, and treats theyre own as 2nd class...
Bitter? naw.. just see it like it is...looks different, from not behind the lens...
Scott..not ashamed to admit who I am.. ( millhouse)
feel free to email me, flame me or send me cryin towels...
SKRAIL69@SBCGLOBAL.NET ./..peace to all my former CR/michigan men!!

[bctrainfan]

skrail and Prior, it is easy for us railfans to sometimes forget that there are real people affected by these changes, buyouts, sellouts, abandonments, mergers, etc, that we sometimes speak so casually of. Of course, I don't think any of us really want to see anyone lose their jobs and careers, or any company go out of business for that matter, even though some of our fantasies and ideas might cause just that if they became reality. (Oh, look,
i think I just lumped railfans in with corporate bigwigs and government bureaucrats! Never thinking of the real world and the little guy! Oooops....sorry, see how easy those unintended consequences happen!)

In the realtively short time of been a little active in this "hobby" I would say one of the aspects I like most is getting to know some of you actual RR guys a little, both in the real world (like at CN Battle Creek or NS Hinman ) and here in "cyberspace." I love the "inside info" we get here from people like Prior,Dok,Tops and the many others who share their real world experience and knowledge with us all the time. I know its appreciated, I think I can safely speak for others here in saying sorry if we sometimes get a little carried away and seem insensitive to the affects some of these things have on all you RR workers. It is not intentional.

[conrail767596]

Best thing I've read in a while, Scott. I hardly ever post on here or give out info anymore. Same reasons.

prior rights... AMEN BROTHER....I buy groceries in Elkhart, I buy gas and diesel...in ELKHART!!!
It gets old hearing how great things are now that NS is outta Kazoo, Gr and here...
When i hear it, I too explain the financial effects I try to administer!!!
My boys have 4 yrs of school...then, Ill probably up root and move...
Railfans get mad when I donna share info...or donna throw hats and trinkets to them now...
I ask them to leave me alone...After driving 75 miles one way to Elkhart, i really have no time
for arm chair railroading....Keep worshipping the ex NS....or what ever its called...Im not bitter,
just realistic now....PS. IT sucks knowing yer company let ya go, or leased or whatever they say.yet, NS dispatches GDLK, Gives them favor imn my yard ELKHART, and treats theyre own as 2nd class...
Bitter? naw.. just see it like it is...looks different, from not behind the lens...
Scott..not ashamed to admit who I am.. ( millhouse)
feel free to email me, flame me or send me cryin towels...
SKRAIL69@SBCGLOBAL.NET ./..peace to all my former CR/michigan men!!

[Old Bastard]

Nicely said SK, and Prior.
Well to top all that off, how about being called an "Old Bastard" because I didn't park an engine where some dweeb wanted me to for a shot. Hence, my name on here, should he ever frequent this board.
Nonetheless, enjoying "retirement" now, so to speak. And doing some of my own camera work these days.

[Super Chief]

One correction to this thread, there is freight service west of Kalamazoo. The Burns Harbor job switches customers between Porter and Decatur. Have caught their job in Dowagiac and Decatur switching the customers south of the line in Dowagiac and also turning at Decatur. When the elevator comes on line in Decatur it will be interesting mixing freight with 110 mph passenger trains. Maybe it will be a night job then. Until then it's an early afternoon job around 1:00-2:00 pm.

[Ypsi]

One correction to this thread, there is freight service west of Kalamazoo. The Burns Harbor job switches customers between Porter and Decatur. Have caught their job in Dowagiac and Decatur switching the customers south of the line in Dowagiac and also turning at Decatur. When the elevator comes on line in Decatur it will be interesting mixing freight with 110 mph passenger trains. Maybe it will be a night job then. Until then it's an early afternoon job around 1:00-2:00 pm.

no trains on the 110 after about 10:30- 11pm on most nights if my memory serves... 355 has a 11 pm arrival into CHI and its the latest one. night seems to be a good option

[tadman]

Guys, it is no fun at all to lose your job. I've been in that position a few times. But to crucify the fans or the railroad just doesn't fly. If that's your logic, why don't we complain about Studebaker being gone, think of all the jobs in South Bend that could've been saved if they'd only kept making Studies at a loss for the last forty years. Or why don't we complain about steamers being gone, think about all the jobs we up and killed because we don't need firemen or oilers or boilermakers anymore?

Time and progress are a reality, and reality is and absolute not to be trifled with.

I'm in the middle of figuring out a new way to make a living, and it takes incredible patience some days not to get really p***ed off at people who think they have it all figured out. But it comes into perspective sometimes, too. I remember back to school and some guys always tried to give me a hard time. I ignored them and reminded myself that a lot of them would be living in their dad's basement and shoveling s*** one of these days, and I was right about quite a few. Now, I remind myself that these clowns that pretend to have it all figured out might be the next dude to lose their hat. I don't really wish that on anybody, but rather them than me.