Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from scrap

[Robertrains]

I think you are completely misunderstanding me, I never said save nothing, I said you can't save everything. There are a number of RS2's preserved around the country, heck 466 is still in White Pigeon and if you are going to preserve one that is the one, first off it is the first RS2, secondly it is operable. So when the time comes to worry about 466, what do you do then? You just got 469, now what?

On top of this, no location in Michigan has proved to me that it is capable of taking care of diesel locomotives in a museum setting aside from the Henry Ford Museum. SMRS surely does not fit the bill. If something has to go out of state to be preserved by an entity that knows what they are doing then so be it. Betting IRM is already looking at options with 466.

466 is already scrapped! Here's the link to this thread from a few months ago: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22966&hilit=michiga ... g&start=40

[GP9R]

On top of this, no location in Michigan has proved to me that it is capable of taking care of diesel locomotives in a museum setting aside from the Henry Ford Museum. SMRS surely does not fit the bill. If something has to go out of state to be preserved by an entity that knows what they are doing then so be it. Betting IRM is already looking at options with 466.

Henry Ford only looks so good because they hide most of their crap. SMRS is a good start and for the most part 469 is not a total heap. I would really like to see 469 get saved, and have been working on an alternate plan. I also fully agree with not saving every single engine, but How many D&M Engines are saved? I can think of 2, Greenfield Village has one, and D&M 10 has been saved, Thats it

[Robert MacDowell]

I think you are completely misunderstanding me, I never said save nothing, I said you can't save everything.

I didn't say "save everything". You said that, to argue against saving THIS thing.
When you do that... for every single thing that come along... that has the same effect as saying "save nothing".

And when you say railroad museums as they realistically exist today are not good enough, then you have nowhere worthy to save anything, which again has the same effect.

There are a number of RS2's preserved around the country, heck 466 is still in White Pigeon and if you are going to preserve one that is the one, first off it is the first RS2, secondly it is operable. So when the time comes to worry about 466, what do you do then? You just got 469, now what?... . Betting IRM is already looking at options with 466.

I tried at the 11th hour (more like 11:59) to save 466. It was unworkable at every level. Hostile location, high metal prices, worse mechanical condition than 469, a private collector who didn't want it and filled the seller's head with unrealistic expectations about price and logistics, and it was already owned by the scrapper who was cutting it the next day. Plus the alternative of 469 with a potentially more friendly seller.

And yes, I had conferred with Nick over at IRM, and their people had evaluated the unit earlier and rejected it, same reasons. IRM did not want 466.

On top of this, no location in Michigan has proved to me that it is capable of taking care of diesel locomotives in a museum setting aside from the Henry Ford Museum. SMRS surely does not fit the bill. If something has to go out of state to be preserved by an entity that knows what they are doing then so be it.

At first blush I'd agree, seems like it oughta be that way, doesn't it?

Let me put on my other hat. I also volunteer at WRM in the mechanical department, which is every bit the equal of IRM. We "top museums" are not as good as you think we are. We have way too much equipment and can barely maintain a fraction of it. (mind you, WRM has a mere 100 cars in its collection, that doesn't help the Utah fans get their stuff to the front of the line.) 469 would be unlikely to ever run in IRM's hands, not when they have Illinois units that are more important (and not 244's.) Similarly, Seashore trolley museum is totally capable of giving the Detroit streetcar a world-class restoration, but that is not gonna happen. Heck, your unit may not rate the car-barn. Or they might bump it the minute they get a more desirable (to them) unit. Or they might get in a housecleaning mode and scrap it like it was nothing. They have no emotional attachment to it.

So no, the super-museums are not a silver-bullet, and your comparison is unfair. "Knowing what you are doing" is not nearly enough.

Besides, "not knowing" is fixable by asking someone or picking up a book. Which brings us to SMRS's abilities. Say what you will, a random SMRS engine is more likely to run than a random IRM or WRM engine. That reflects SOME level of stewardship which cannot be denied. All musuems have a back forty full of junk. Frankly, SMRS less than most. For someone who judges as harshly as you do, you need to look a lot closer. You can't just go by surface appearances.

[tadman]

I would argue that the sentiment that little of Michigan's railroad history is being saved is a false statement. The PM 1225 is one of the premier steamers alive today, and they have a few other smaller locomotives at SRI as well. Further, some railroading assets identifiable only as Michigan are still in place - Niles station, DT&I catenary arches, and 4 lakes ferries (one still operating and coal fired). In other words, Michigan has the only coal-fired revenue steamer left (it's just not a locomotive).

When it comes to rolling stock, Michigan didn't have a lot of distinctive equipment due to the fact most Michigan roads, postwar, were subsidiaries of NYC, PRR, CN, or Wabash. The Pere Marquette livery lives on today in much-modified form as "dark future" - that's one of very few heritage liveries to survive.

You also have the Nat'l NYC museum ten minutes over the border in Elkhart. While they don't mention MCRR very much, anything that ran for NYC was fair game for use on MCRR. The E8, #4085, probably logged quite a few miles on MCRR.

If you want to help preserve Michigan railroad history, the SRI, Nat'l NYC Museum, or SS City of Milwaukee are worthy candidates of your dollars and time.

[Standard Railfan]

Well thought out position Tadman. Well done.

[GP30M4216]

As a professional historic preservationist who has real-life experience with both historic buildings and historic pieces of railroad equipment, I think I'm allowed to chime in on my soap box here. When it comes to nominating something to the National Register of Historic Places, which is America's official list of cultural resources worthy of preservation, it must generally meet all or some portion of the following criteria:

• Age and Integrity. Is the property old enough to be considered historic (generally at least 50 years old) and does it still look much the way it did in the past?

• Significance. Is the property associated with events, activities, or developments that were important in the past? With the lives of people who were important in the past? With significant architectural history, landscape history, or engineering achievements? Does it have the potential to yield information through archeological investigation about our past?

Now, is this the only way to tell if something can be truly considered both "historic" and "important?" Of course not. But this is a well-accepted standard. I would argue that along these guidelines, 469 is certainly worthy of preservation. As far as early road-switchers go, it does retain much of its integrity, external and internal, and it continued to operate in such a state until only 5 years ago, it's 61st year. True, it's not the first RS2 ever produced. But it is now the one remaining locomotive from that initial order, for the railroad that was first to dieselize in America. Beyond that, it outlasted all of its sisters in operational status on its home rails from arrival in 1946 until failure in 2007, owned only by the road that purchased it and that road's immediate successor. That unit has spent longer on the rails of northeast Michigan than any SD70ACe or GEVO will which is currently on the road. Plus, it is now one of two examples left remaining to tell the unique story of the D&M's system of numbering locomotives after the month and year or acquisition. If you put it back in maroon and light gray paint, it would look very much the way it did toiling up and down the Huron Shore Line in the post-war era.

A big tip of my hat to Waymore Power for recognizing the value of this last-remaining D&M RS2 and not tossing it into the scrap heap. YES, there is plenty of Michigan railroad history which has been preserved in some method or another. But does that make another candidate less worthy? If another N&W J-class steamer were preserved, would it not deserve equal preservation as #611? You can't preserve everything. Any right-minded preservationist, historian or enthusiast will admit to that. But when the opportunity comes along to MAKE IT HAPPEN, arguing about its need for existence isn't really helping get things done, now is it?

I can't think of a railroad museum anywhere in the country that doesn't suffer from some degree of collection contamination. By that I mean things which are in the collection, which should be deaccessioned for the betterment of everything else. What role does the GG1 serve at the National New York Central RR Museum? (I'm allowed to ask this question, I used to work there.) Why does any museum keep that rusty relic stored way in the back field when it's clearly too far gone to ever see life again? And why do people act as if Henry Ford Museum is the ultimate model for railroad preservation.....don't forget they were given a Detroit Street Railways Peter Witt streetcar only to let it languish in the elements for a decade or more before sending it on to IRM, and in far worse condition than when it arrived. Railroad museums have hopes and dreams just as real railroads have dead lines. That's just the way it is. The problem comes when the lineup of decaying equipment drags down the resources so they're not being put into the equipment which runs or has a real chance of being salvaged. Railroad museums must be mindful of their collections policy and mission statement. If that Central Pacific caboose doesn't quite fit in with your Michigan-themed railroad museum, then maybe it's time to determine its value here. Most likely, it would have greater value somewhere else, like out on local Central Pacific territory in the southwest part of the country. Could a mutually agreeable trade be arranged? That's how Mohawk 3001 came to the NNYCRR Museum in Elkhart (it has previously been in TEXAS....not exactly NYC territory!). The trolley museum I work at recently completed a 3-way trade with two other trolley museums, so that everyone got something they needed and better fit in with their collection or future plans. Of course, the railfan community doesn't have the resources to truck every museum piece to its most-appropriate location based on its value in local history, but arrangements are sometimes made for pieces to be sent to a more-proper place for continued care.

I don't know a thing about SMRS (other than they have one asset which most other museums lack, and that's a fair amount of track and right-of-way which is their own), but if they seem like the most viable and willing candidate to receive 469 (and as a bonus, they have Alco experience), then it seems that we as railroad historians and enthusiasts should back them up and do our best to support the effort. If you don't think they're capable of undertaking the work, then get involved yourself and take on some personal pride in seeing the project along. If SMRS is not the best place to send it, it seems that there are plenty of other places along the old D&M and other northern Michigan rails where a nicely-painted RS2 might look good coupled to an already existing caboose or locomotive exhibit (I can think of several).

If I were closer to the situation at hand, I would be more involved. Given my distance, I intend to make a contribution to the "469 fund" to the extent of my abilities if a recognized movement does take shape to preserve D&M's last RS2.

[NYCJIM]

Couldn't have said it any better myself GP30M! That was a very calm, cool & collective way of analizing this situation reasonably.

[TrainWatcher]

Well Nate, SMRS is always looking for help. With our newest addition of D&M #10, we can always use a few good people.

If anyone is interested check out: http://www.southernmichiganrailroad.com/3.html

[AlcoGuy]

MagnumForce wrote: Their are a number of RS2s preserved around the country. Really? I know of 1 but where are the rest? I'm not buyin it. RS3s or 1s maybe but wheres all these preserved 2s?

[Trainman2223]

Three former Kennecott Copper locomotives are preserved, including Kennecott Copper 908 (former number 104) at the Western Pacific Railroad Museum at Portola, California. KCC 908 once served the mines out of Ely, Nevada along the Nevada Northern Railway. Nevada Northern 105 is at Ely, Nevada, it was formerly the Kennecott Copper 105. Kennecott Copper 103 is at the San Diego Railroad Museum in Campo, California. It is painted as Santa Fe 2098. Another RS-2 is in active service on the Texas State Railroad (rebuilt as an RS-2-CAT). It is the former Union Railroad 608.Elgin Joliet and Eastern 801 is preserved in Jala, Mexico as a Las Encinas SA de CV 801. And MLW built Roberval and Saguenay 20 is at the Canadian Railway Museum.
http://www.thedieselshop.us/PRSVDalcoRS.HTML

[UncleRaul]

All the chatter about this died, did the loco get scrapped? As for the argument to preserve, wasn't the 469 part of the first order of this model, which had a fairly significant role in shaping railroading history? The second one built (as in, the second RS2 in existence) was already scrapped, if I'm recalling correctly.

[AARR]

All the chatter about this died, did the loco get scrapped? As for the argument to preserve, wasn't the 469 part of the first order of this model, which had a fairly significant role in shaping railroading history? The second one built (as in, the second RS2 in existence) was already scrapped, if I'm recalling correctly.

D&M ordered the 1st three RS2's off the production line in 1946 and numbered them 466, 467, 468, 469 and 4610.

[LSRC]

466 was the first built, but was scrapped unfortunately. As AARR stated, 469 was in the first order though.

466 = scrapped by the MSO a few years back.
467 = I believe it was sold as surplus in the 1970s.
468 = Scrapped by the Lake State.
469 = Unit in question, still in Saginaw.
4610 = Scrapped by the Lake State.

[jrgerber]

What was the "as delivered" scheme for the D*M RS-2s? Any pictures?

[GP30M4216]

As-deliverd RS2 D&M scheme.