Woodward Light Rail

[PerRock]

Are there signs telling people not to drive on the tracks? or are people just confused enough to not try it?

peter

[ConrailMan5]

Are there signs telling people not to drive on the tracks? or are people just confused enough to not try it?

peter

Nope, I definitely drove on it as did many others. Just happened that in those photos there weren't people on the tracks.

[Ypsi]

Are there signs telling people not to drive on the tracks? or are people just confused enough to not try it?

peter

Nope, I definitely drove on it as did many others. Just happened that in those photos there weren't people on the tracks.

I kinda did that on purpose so we could see the tracks in the photos

Here is a video "previewing" some of the route as we drive over the SB tracks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08OUj16kfPo

[Saturnalia]

Yeah, people are gonna LOVE that light rail line in their street!

[ns8401]

Yeah, people are gonna LOVE that light rail line in their street!

Ummmm.... Where do you think they were originally?

[Saturnalia]

Yeah, people are gonna LOVE that light rail line in their street!

Ummmm.... Where do you think they were originally?

I don't contest that...but based on the traffic congestion in the video, they need that 2nd lane!

[J T]

Yeah, people are gonna LOVE that light rail line in their street!

Ummmm.... Where do you think they were originally?

Ummmm...people (and times) were MUCH different when they were there originally.

I don't mind the idea of light rail, but if they end up causing congestion (ie: get in MY way when I'm trying to get somewhere), I'm going to get pissed off.

[Saturnalia]

Yeah, people are gonna LOVE that light rail line in their street!

Ummmm.... Where do you think they were originally?

Ummmm...people (and times) were MUCH different when they were there originally.

I don't mind the idea of light rail, but if they end up causing congestion (ie: get in MY way when I'm trying to get somewhere), I'm going to get pissed off.

Ahh I knew Jim would chime in...my thoughts exactly!

If streetcars need to share ROW, they should be on either lightly traveled streets or on one-ways where they can lose a lane easily. Woodward does not fit that description!

[ConrailMan5]

Yeah, people are gonna LOVE that light rail line in their street!

Ummmm.... Where do you think they were originally?

I don't contest that...but based on the traffic congestion in the video, they need that 2nd lane!

That was after a lions game MQT. Traffic was a mess around there.

[CSX_CO]

If streetcars need to share ROW, they should be on either lightly traveled streets or on one-ways where they can lose a lane easily. Woodward does not fit that description!

Interesting article in Smithsonian about this sort of thing. When the electric trolleys first arrived in cities, it was bedlam as pedestrians and horse drawn carts just moved where ever they pleased. Situation was made worse when the Model T arrived. There was a publicity campaign to get pedestrians on the sidewalks and out of the streets, which used psychological means to get people to conform to new rules. The term "Jaywalker" was derogatory, and thus why walking in the street, or outside of designated cross walks, is how 'jaywalker' came to be known for that 'offense'.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking

Anyway, point I'm trying to make is any time you introduce a new 'technology' into the streets, it takes some adjustment to get it right. We, as a society, managed to survive the 'street cars' being installed in our streets once before, it stands to reason we'll do it again. So, we can debate the merits of a city in bankruptcy spending that kind of money, but writing it off because of some perceived inconvenience before its even been running for any length of time is pretty short sighted.

Practice Safe CSX

[J T]

Anyway, point I'm trying to make is any time you introduce a new 'technology' into the streets, it takes some adjustment to get it right. We, as a society, managed to survive the 'street cars' being installed in our streets once before, it stands to reason we'll do it again.

Again, that was when population and traffic levels were no where near what they are today, but the size of the streets have pretty much remained consistent. I'm all for public transportation as long as it doesn't mean the reduction of a much-needed lane of traffic. Unfortunately, the people riding buses and street cars will not offset the amount of traffic that remains on the roadway. Same goes for bike lanes. Make all you want, but if it means losing a lane of traffic in each direction, thus choking traffic flow, I'm against them.

[CSX_CO]

Have you seen photos of streets from the 1900's? Before traffic control and a lot of traffic laws were enacted? Especially ones from the cities? You had people, horses, and cars all over the place. We survived and adapted then, we can again.

Funny how you say you're for public transit, provided it doesn't inconvenience you. Public transit is the sacrifice of individual freedom of movement for the betterment of "everyone".

Practice Safe CSX

[Standard Railfan]

We survived and adapted then, we can again.

Practice Safe CSX

Houston Texas may be the exception... http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/tr ... 305.php#/0

Of course, Texas drivers have never impressed me as being cognizant of their surroundings.

[J T]

Have you seen photos of streets from the 1900's? Before traffic control and a lot of traffic laws were enacted? Especially ones from the cities? You had people, horses, and cars all over the place. We survived and adapted then, we can again.

Funny how you say you're for public transit, provided it doesn't inconvenience you. Public transit is the sacrifice of individual freedom of movement for the betterment of "everyone".

Nothing funny about it. Public transit infrastructure shouldn't inconvenience those who can't or don't use it. And please post the link to the definition of "public transit" where it states that it's a sacrifice of individual freedom of movement for the betterment of others.

There is PLENTY of public transit in this world that doesn't inconvenience the existing flow of traffic like street cars and bike lanes do. Instead of reducing the number of lanes available for transit, they should be increasing them. What is happening now in many cities is a regress, not progress, of traffic flow.

[ns8401]

Have you seen photos of streets from the 1900's? Before traffic control and a lot of traffic laws were enacted? Especially ones from the cities? You had people, horses, and cars all over the place. We survived and adapted then, we can again.

Funny how you say you're for public transit, provided it doesn't inconvenience you. Public transit is the sacrifice of individual freedom of movement for the betterment of "everyone".

Practice Safe CSX

It looked exactly like it does in China today.... pure chaos. And no JT in Detroit the population wasn't lower. Downtown was both where it was at and Detroit was THE city. No suburbs and all that stuff so the density dodging the streetcars down there was high. It's kind of dumb to complain based on density in a city where there is little density downtown to inconvenience. This isn't New York.

[CSX_CO]

It is a sacrifice of personal freedom as you're required to go when the schedule makers say you go, not when YOU want to. How else would you define that?

That was the reason why the personal auto exploded. No more waiting on a steam railroad or inter urban, I go when I want to. Since the personal auto is a very inefficient way of moving people we need all this capacity for all these single occupancy cars. Now we complain when we're trying to revert to mass transit in the cities, where the population density is enough to make it viable, because it's taking away lanes we could be driving on.

However, with the increased headaches of driving, makes public transit more attractive. Look at METRA in Chicago. Even the EL trains take up surface street space with their supports.

Again, our society adapted in the 1900's to all the changes, in time we will too.

[ns8401]

It is a sacrifice of personal freedom as you're required to go when the schedule makers say you go, not when YOU want to. How else would you define that?

That was the reason why the personal auto exploded. No more waiting on a steam railroad or inter urban, I go when I want to. Since the personal auto is a very inefficient way of moving people we need all this capacity for all these single occupancy cars. Now we complain when we're trying to revert to mass transit in the cities, where the population density is enough to make it viable, because it's taking away lanes we could be driving on.

However, with the increased headaches of driving, makes public transit more attractive. Look at METRA in Chicago. Even the EL trains take up surface street space with their supports.

Again, our society adapted in the 1900's to all the changes, in time we will too.

I wonder if there was similar complaining then too?

[CSX_CO]

It is a sacrifice of personal freedom as you're required to go when the schedule makers say you go, not when YOU want to. How else would you define that?

That was the reason why the personal auto exploded. No more waiting on a steam railroad or inter urban, I go when I want to. Since the personal auto is a very inefficient way of moving people we need all this capacity for all these single occupancy cars. Now we complain when we're trying to revert to mass transit in the cities, where the population density is enough to make it viable, because it's taking away lanes we could be driving on.

However, with the increased headaches of driving, makes public transit more attractive. Look at METRA in Chicago. Even the EL trains take up surface street space with their supports.

Again, our society adapted in the 1900's to all the changes, in time we will too.

I wonder if there was similar complaining then too?

Without a doubt...

Practice Safe CSX

[Standard Railfan]

I wonder if there was similar complaining then too?

Do you mean something like this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 513347.jpg

[J T]

It's kind of dumb to complain based on density in a city where there is little density downtown to inconvenience.

Nothing dumb about it, as I'm complaining about the streets I have to deal with every day, many of which have reduced lanes due to bike lanes and public transit (the recent "Silver Line" in GR, for example, which chokes traffic on Division St. in Grand Rapids due to lane reduction).

It is a sacrifice of personal freedom as you're required to go when the schedule makers say you go, not when YOU want to. How else would you define that?

No one is sacrificing personal freedom by using public transit. It's a choice they've made.

That was the reason why the personal auto exploded. No more waiting on a steam railroad or inter urban, I go when I want to. Since the personal auto is a very inefficient way of moving people we need all this capacity for all these single occupancy cars. Now we complain when we're trying to revert to mass transit in the cities, where the population density is enough to make it viable, because it's taking away lanes we could be driving on.

However, with the increased headaches of driving, makes public transit more attractive. Look at METRA in Chicago. Even the EL trains take up surface street space with their supports.

METRA is great if you're going to a single destination, which is not possible with the majority of people in society. METRA also doesn't reduce or eliminate lanes of traffic on roadways, so that analogy doesn't really apply to the point I've been making. Also, the L has been around for 100+ years, far before traffic volumes of today existed. Cars were also much smaller then, not to mention the horse and buggy. It's pointless to compare the space that the L takes up on surface streets because it is a system that has been in place for a very long time, and its existence hasn't reduced or eliminated traffic lanes that previously were part of the normal traffic flow.

Again, our society adapted in the 1900's to all the changes, in time we will too.

In terms of adaption, it's time people adapt to expansion, not reduction.

Again, I'm all for public transportation as long as it doesn't impede personal transportation, which so many of us depend on every day.