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ThatRailfanningKid wrote:the elevators would have to drop truck shipments and ship exclusively by rail to keep making money. But they'd be better off shipping by rail anyhow.

Its my understanding that all three elevators ship a lot of corn to local ethanol plants. The short distances and multiple railroads involved if shipped by rail which reduces the profit and makes it less desirable for the railroads involved. A lot of if not most grain shipped by rail is for feed plants in southern states which prefer unit train shipments something the three elevators on JAIL cannot do without investing a lot of money in structure changes.

AARR wrote:

ThatRailfanningKid wrote:the elevators would have to drop truck shipments and ship exclusively by rail to keep making money. But they'd be better off shipping by rail anyhow.

Its my understanding that all three elevators ship a lot of corn to local ethanol plants. The short distances and multiple railroads involved if shipped by rail which reduces the profit and makes it less desirable for the railroads involved. A lot of if not most grain shipped by rail is for feed plants in southern states which prefer unit train shipments something the three elevators on JAIL cannot do without investing a lot of money in structure changes.

I'm not saying it would work here, but is there any history of railroads and multiple elevators coming together to make unit trains from several smaller elevators?

MQT3001 wrote:I'm not saying it would work here, but is there any history of railroads and multiple elevators coming together to make unit trains from several smaller elevators?

Sure is in fact it might be a common practice on some short lines. I think HESR has some elevators that combine to ship unit trains. But I don't know if it would work on JAIL because from what I hear most of those 3 elevators destinations at local ethanol plants. BTW, all three elevators are owned by the same guy if what I read is true.

MQT3001 wrote: I'm not saying it would work here, but is there any history of railroads and multiple elevators coming together to make unit trains from several smaller elevators?

This could work. The three of them put together could probably put out a 20-car unit train a week (that's a rough estimate, correct me if I'm wrong). Another plausible: CSX could bring their grain shipments to Ensel for JAIL to pick up and carry along with their grain shipments, then let NS take it from Jackson to where it needs to go. But that could be too many trains for just one shipment. It would've been easier if NS had held on to the Jackson & Lansing, but I'm not bashing on A&B, I like them.

ThatRailfanningKid wrote:This could work. The three of them put together could probably put out a 20-car unit train a week (that's a rough estimate, correct me if I'm wrong). Another plausible: CSX could bring their grain shipments to Ensel for JAIL to pick up and carry along with their grain shipments, then let NS take it from Jackson to where it needs to go. But that could be too many trains for just one shipment. It would've been easier if NS had held on to the Jackson & Lansing, but I'm not bashing on A&B, I like them.

I've been told if more than two railroads are involved in a unit grain train there is not enough profit to make it worth their while. Yet, GLC gives their grain to AA who takes it to CSX so maybe there is a way to make it worth three railroads.

Guys, do any of you have any experience to back up what you are talking about? CSX handing off a "20 car unit grant train" to JAIL to hand off to NS? Not very smart. First, "unit'trains" are usually 50+ cars minimum in size, typically 70-100 cars. Second, why involve JAIL? If the unit train originates on CSX and will terminate on NS, then CSX would likely haul the unit train to either Toledo or Chicago to hand off to NS.

The entire idea behind a "unit train" is the economy of scale of many cars originating and terminating at common origins and destinations AND avoiding the need to switch or hump the train at intermediate yards. The pricing for a "unit train" is usually highly discounted in order to make the move cost effective for the customer, yet still financially viable for the railroad. Almost every time a train moves from one railroad to another, there is a new train crew, and there must be an interchange inspection of the cars. This all adds costs. So, the minimum number of railroads in the route is critical to controlling costs.

As far as GLC giving traffic to AA to give to NS at Toledo, I seem to remember (memory... not bad for being in my 70s) that there was some special contract protections put in place when the State allowed the AA South to be split and sold off so that the AA North would not become cut off from the rest of the world. But, I am no expert in that regard. Maybe the famous Mr. T that cruises this board occasionally can help with better data.

I mean, personally, I was making a sort of educated guess, but I don't know a fraction of what everyone else on this site does. That's mainly why I joined this forum; so that I could talk to people who actually know the railroad industry forwards and backwards, and not only would be willing to talk about train-related topics (or just yell at me because I probably post too much), but would pass on what they know to me, so that I would eventually be stating facts more than giving an opinionated theory.

Anything is possible. It comes down to what the marketing people can work out between everyone along with the operational side. A couple of examples:

First to answer young grasshopper MQT3001's question, it indeed is possible to make unit size trains from multiple grain elevators. The Eastern Washington Railway does just that on the state owned lines in Washington state. Same as some of the shortlines and regionals in Kansas and Oklahoma. Even CSX used to do it. Back before CSX leased the Midland Sub between Columbus and Cincy to the I&O, CSX used to run a G017. Basically the four smaller grain elevators on the Midland would load X amount each to build a solid 65 car train and a crew would start out building the train as they headed towards Columbus. I&O still loads 15 car trains or less all the time. There's a grain company that loads on the Ohio River that leased 75 DJJX grain cars that are being used on the I&O this season. Mostly for Trupointe in South Chuck, but other smaller elevators are getting in the mix too. I&O shuttle corn into the Valero ethanol plant on the Midland. Closest comes from just 19 miles away and farthest at the moment is over on the CFE @ Scott's Equity.

As for multiple Class 1s moving unit grain trains, indeed it's also possible just as long as marketing between everyone involved and the operational side can make it work. Perfect example is the I&O and the Keynes Bros wheat shuttle. I&O has a couple 15 car sets of NOKL grain cars that float back and forth between Keynes wheat mill in southern Ohio on the I&O's Logan Sub and Metamora on the I&O's DT&I North. If one didn't know better looking at the I&O's system map you would just assume it moves via the I&O the entire way since the I&O has two lines into Columbus. Since the I&O can't interchange directly between the Midland and Logan Subs in Columbus it has to move via NS from Springfield to Columbus. It gets transferred to CSX in Columbus and a CSX yard crew spots in Parsons for a Logan Sub crew to pick up. That's two Class 1s to make it happen. So anything is possible if everyone involved is interested in making it happen.

MQT3001 wrote: I'm not saying it would work here, but is there any history of railroads and multiple elevators coming together to make unit trains from several smaller elevators?

Yes. The TSBY started doing this within a couple years after they began operations in the thumb region. They worked out agreements between the various shippers to combined shipments into a unit train. This allowed the shippers lower transportation costs for their products, and allowed better handling of the trains by the Class 1 railroads. From what I have read, it was sort of a pain for the TSBY crew because they would have to split the trains and take the cars to various locations, then reassemble the train into a unit train.

Would it work now? I don't know given the quick turnaround the Class 1's demand of unit trains. I guess if they were shortline owned cars it would work.

AARR wrote:

ThatRailfanningKid wrote:This could work. The three of them put together could probably put out a 20-car unit train a week (that's a rough estimate, correct me if I'm wrong). Another plausible: CSX could bring their grain shipments to Ensel for JAIL to pick up and carry along with their grain shipments, then let NS take it from Jackson to where it needs to go. But that could be too many trains for just one shipment. It would've been easier if NS had held on to the Jackson & Lansing, but I'm not bashing on A&B, I like them.

I've been told if more than two railroads are involved in a unit grain train there is not enough profit to make it worth their while. Yet, GLC gives their grain to AA who takes it to CSX so maybe there is a way to make it worth three railroads.

I'm sure there is some sort of agreement in place between the AA-GLC-CSX for those grain movements. The AA likely provides the service as a haulage rights move from Osmer to Toledo. They likely get X amount per car for the movement of the grain traffic to and from the GLC at Osmer. It very well could work the same way for the sand traffic that the GLC sends to Toledo via Osmer.

I do know CSX and the GLC used to interchange grain trains in Howell, but it was a royal pain for both railroads, so they moved the interchange to Toledo via the AA. I'm sure the AA gets paid decently for their portion of the movements.

About 15 years ago my Dad was a board member on a farmers Co-Op in N.W. Ohio(If you've been to Fremont, Upper Sandusky, Belevue, Fort Seneca, ect. you've seen it) At the time they were expanding their operations and facilities to handle 100 car unit trains. The main reason being that unless you were ordering at least 100 empty hoppers from the railroads you were given a low priority and you would get the cars only when all the larger accounts were satisfied if you got them at all. That was unless you had a previous agreement with a private car line and had cars leased ahead of time, which had it's own set of problems. The other big problem with getting large blocks of cars is you only have so much time to fill them and return them to the railroad or the demaruge(I can't spell it) rates start kicking in and can be more then the profits made from the grain sales. So if your load out facility has enough track capacity to hold 100 cars it does you no good unless you can fill them in less then 24 hours. Most older facilities can't handle that amount of grain or move that much in that amount of time.

So the smaller elevators truck their grain to the bigger ones that load out to rail, unless your facility is too remote to truck the grain economically to a bigger facility. Then you better own your own cars or you won't get them.

Oh and also to ship by rail your grain must meet a certain level of cleanliness(free from foreign objects and weed seed) and moisture, smaller older facilities can not always meet these requirements and their grain must go through additional cleaning at the terminal elevators.

chapmaja wrote:

MQT3001 wrote: I'm not saying it would work here, but is there any history of railroads and multiple elevators coming together to make unit trains from several smaller elevators?

Yes. The TSBY started doing this within a couple years after they began operations in the thumb region. They worked out agreements between the various shippers to combined shipments into a unit train. This allowed the shippers lower transportation costs for their products, and allowed better handling of the trains by the Class 1 railroads. From what I have read, it was sort of a pain for the TSBY crew because they would have to split the trains and take the cars to various locations, then reassemble the train into a unit train.

Would it work now? I don't know given the quick turnaround the Class 1's demand of unit trains. I guess if they were shortline owned cars it would work.

GLC continues the practice by combining cars from Shepherd and Rosebush (owned by same elevator) to build larger blocks or grain.

I know it was referenced in another thread a year or so ago, but has the Engine Shop been completed in Mason yet?

I can't comment on the innards of the building. But, when I drove past it in October, looked to be pretty complete from the outside.

Looks complete to me. I can't say I've had a good look at the inside, but the outside is finished. I caught a glimpse of the inside one day this summer when the door was open. Looked nice, but there wasn't too much in there.

The last time I saw inside the building which was a few weeks ago there was still a dirt floor. The CV Caboose is still inside. I would guess it's been there 3 or 4 months.. There was a heating company there a few weeks ago for a few days. I would asume installing a furnace because of the two exhaust vents now on the east side of the building. I have not talked with any of the workers from JAIL in a month or so. I work and live in Mason and they some times drive the lot where I work.

GTWRalph wrote:The CV Caboose is still inside. I would guess it's been there 3 or 4 months..

Are they restoring one of the old cabooses that are stored down in Blissfield?

The CV Caboose inside appears to be restored, at least from the outside. There are curtains over the widows so I could not see inside.

GTWRalph wrote:The last time I saw inside the building which was a few weeks ago there was still a dirt floor. The CV Caboose is still inside. I would guess it's been there 3 or 4 months.. There was a heating company there a few weeks ago for a few days. I would asume installing a furnace because of the two exhaust vents now on the east side of the building. I have not talked with any of the workers from JAIL in a month or so. I work and live in Mason and they some times drive the lot where I work.

Not to bother you, but how many trains would you guess go through mason a day?

ThatRailfanningKid wrote:Not to bother you, but how many trains would you guess go through mason a day?

One train goes north during the day and comes back to Mason then goes south during the night, 5-6 days a week.