RailRoadFan.com

NS has changed the meeting point between Amtrak #350 & #353 . It was formerly done at Jackson, NS is now having these two trains meet at Chelsea, or at least thats what took place on 12-27-09 One train has to pull onto the "rusty Rail" on #1 track to allow the other to pass, then back out then proceed on #2 track. Why doesn't NS just run a freight train down #1 track ? seems that would remove the rust which is prohibiting proper signal indication.

I think that one of the trains was simply running late so the dispatcher thought it best just to have one continue on to Chelsea rather than sit at Jackson for a long time. Has this happened multiple times or just this one time? And for the rusty rail, I don't think Amtrak wants to experiment on removing the rust with a train full of passengers, just in case.

When Amtrak changed the times of these trains is when the 'normal' meet takes place at Chelsea instead of the Jackson area.

NS put the rusty rail rule on most of the sidings on the Michigan line after they consolidated the NORAC and NS rule books a while back. There is a couple of the crossings that have some 'issues' and NS probably couldn't justify spending that kind of money to correct the problems with the amount of traffic that THEY run on the line.

Last time I rode 353 it met 350 at Miller, and had to back out of the siding. This was just after Labor Day.

I was out just west of Dexter this past July and heard a train backing in or out at Chelsea, but I don't remember which it was.

Was on Amtrak 350 today, and it met 353 at Lake, just east of Chelsea.

350 was held until 353 was in the siding.

I was on 350 yesterday (sunday) and it pulled into the siding at Chelsea, and backed out after 353 passed. Pretty silly operation, I hope Amtrak is going to figure something out with that. Thats a big time waster to be doing regularly. I read an old Trains magazine a while back from the PC era, it mentioned Penn Central had begun to run one of its "hotshot" trains over the Porter-Kalamazoo line in order to eliminate the rusty rail conditions. I'm guessing this was before Amtrak had 8 trains a day running over it.

Another time waster was getting stuck at Gord in Battle Creek for a CN eastbound. Both trains arrived at Gord at the exact same time, but the CN train went through first. Aren't there crossovers east of the Amtrak station, so the freight could have stayed on track two while the Amtrak came into the depot?

In the back of my mind, I seem to recall that Amtrak has had problems with crossing signals not functioning properly when rust gets on the wheels of their cars. The Amtrak trains are so lightweight and so short that, when they run through a multi-mile-long rusty rail siding, they "cake up" the rust on their wheels, and then it takes a number of miles before the rust wears off.

Modern crossing predictors (they work on a doppler principal) are sometimes "fooled" by rust into thinking that a train is further away than it really is, thus delaying the activation of the crossing signals.

A year or so back, 353 and 352 were supposed to "meet" at Chelsea, and NS often would stick a freight in the mix there, too, so that the Amtraks would end up in the siding, wait for the freight to pass, then one of the Amtraks would back out.

Ben Higdon wrote:. Pretty silly operation, I hope Amtrak is going to figure something out with that. Thats a big time waster to be doing regularly.

I am sure that there is a reason for this, but wouldn't it take less time to back into the siding before the meet? Then you can just pull right out after the other train passes. This way, you are reversing and all of that stuff in the time window that you would normally just be sitting and waiting.

The reason why they pull into the siding instead of backing in is because the EB Amtrak would have to pull east of the east end of Chelsea siding, which means that the westbound would not be able to leave the last control point, which is Wayne. It's a less efficient meet. Can't have opposing movements in single track territory.

Plus many passenger cars have disc brakes (instead of shoes like freight cars) so the rust does not get "scrubbed" off the wheels by the brake shoes.

RRTTF wrote:In the back of my mind, I seem to recall that Amtrak has had problems with crossing signals not functioning properly when rust gets on the wheels of their cars. The Amtrak trains are so lightweight and so short that, when they run through a multi-mile-long rusty rail siding, they "cake up" the rust on their wheels, and then it takes a number of miles before the rust wears off.

Modern crossing predictors (they work on a doppler principal) are sometimes "fooled" by rust into thinking that a train is further away than it really is, thus delaying the activation of the crossing signals.

A year or so back, 353 and 352 were supposed to "meet" at Chelsea, and NS often would stick a freight in the mix there, too, so that the Amtraks would end up in the siding, wait for the freight to pass, then one of the Amtraks would back out.

Sorta true; Amtrak cars have shoes also.

MSchwiebert wrote:Plus many passenger cars have disc brakes (instead of shoes like freight cars) so the rust does not get "scrubbed" off the wheels by the brake shoes.

RRTTF wrote:In the back of my mind, I seem to recall that Amtrak has had problems with crossing signals not functioning properly when rust gets on the wheels of their cars. The Amtrak trains are so lightweight and so short that, when they run through a multi-mile-long rusty rail siding, they "cake up" the rust on their wheels, and then it takes a number of miles before the rust wears off.

Not true...
All passenger cars that run on the Michigan routes have both disc and rim brakes on the trucks...

I wasn't sure how the brakes on whatever cars are used up in Michigan are configured, I remember reading that disc brakes had been an issue in previous instances.

GTWTD3 wrote:The reason why they pull into the siding instead of backing in is because the EB Amtrak would have to pull east of the east end of Chelsea siding, which means that the westbound would not be able to leave the last control point, which is Wayne. It's a less efficient meet. Can't have opposing movements in single track territory.

Ok. I was sure that there was a reason. Seems like NS should just run B34 through there a couple of times to get that all fixed up. If they put some old (pre dash-8) GE's (if they have any) on the point, the wheelslip should quickly remove almost all of the rust.

bnsfMAN93 wrote:If they put some old (pre dash-8) GE's (if they have any) on the point, the wheelslip should quickly remove almost all of the rust.

Huh?

Practice Safe CSX

CSX, I think he said NS should put an old GE unit that was made prior to the GE -8 Series on the B34 train and run it through the siding to remove the rust on the rails. Oh course, all you have to do is google "NS roster" to know that there are no "pre-8s" units left.

bnsfMAN93 wrote:

GTWTD3 wrote:The reason why they pull into the siding instead of backing in is because the EB Amtrak would have to pull east of the east end of Chelsea siding, which means that the westbound would not be able to leave the last control point, which is Wayne. It's a less efficient meet. Can't have opposing movements in single track territory.

Ok. I was sure that there was a reason. Seems like NS should just run B34 through there a couple of times to get that all fixed up. If they put some old (pre dash-8) GE's (if they have any) on the point, the wheelslip should quickly remove almost all of the rust.

When it comes to removing rusty rail, especially where passenger trains run, an act of God has to occur. No one wants to put their behind that, especially if the next train through hits a busload of nuns.

LSRC wrote:CSX, I think he said NS should put an old GE unit that was made prior to the GE -8 Series on the B34 train and run it through the siding to remove the rust on the rails. Oh course, all you have to do is google "NS roster" to know that there are no "pre-8s" units left.

Lame GE joke. Another failure at humor.

bnsfMAN93 wrote:

LSRC wrote:CSX, I think he said NS should put an old GE unit that was made prior to the GE -8 Series on the B34 train and run it through the siding to remove the rust on the rails. Oh course, all you have to do is google "NS roster" to know that there are no "pre-8s" units left.

Lame GE joke. Another failure at humor.

All around FAIL...