Detroit-Grand Rapids Amtrak

[willardgarrett]

I am slightly puzzled by Amtrak's current Blue Water service. Port Huron to Chicago seems like an odd route to me, especially when one considers that there is no service from Detroit to Grand Rapids. If the Blue Water train were eliminated, the largest (in terms of ridership) station closed would be Flint. With the money saved by closing this route, I am sure that Amtrak could either run a seperate train from Detroit to Grand Rapids, or better, extend the Pere Marquette route to Detroit. Either way, Lansing would retain the same frequency and service to Chicago, and the ridership would most likely increase substantially, probably enough to make up for the loss of Flint. In addition, Livonia would gain Amtrak service, as well as Brighton. Has this service ever been considered? It seems like the CSX line between the two cities is losing a lot of traffic, and I see potential for this line to eventually support multiple passenger trains per day, since it seems that there are only about 6 scheduled freights, and CSX has a more efficient route for through traffic. All of the trackage is already in place to allow these trains to run from the Detroit Amtrak station to GR. Any opinions?

[KenB]

C&O ran a first class passenger service Detroit to Grand Rapids than with the railroads tax dollers the State built a freeway paralling the route so the passenger train went away.
Coming up to modern times, yes the C&O is a great ROW, good track, CTC but the freeway is still there and is there really a need for a route from Grand Rapids to Detroit? If I were in Grand Rapids and wanted to go to a big city for shopping I would go to Chicago. They have shopping, enterntmant AND rapid transit. Detroit has no way to get around and unless you have an automobile, no way to get out to the shopping areas.

Even Detroit-Lansing, is there really a need for this service? And who is going to pay for it?

Since there is not a lot of money avaible, why not up-grade the Detroit-Chicago route with more frequent on time service. Connecting bus to Grand Rapids and Lansing than if you do not want to take the Bluewater, take a bus to connect with 353.
KenB

[SD80MAC]

I'd rather see them add a second Pere Marquette to the Chicago-Grand Rapids route.

[willardgarrett]

Coming up to modern times, yes the C&O is a great ROW, good track, CTC but the freeway is still there and is there really a need for a route from Grand Rapids to Detroit?
Even Detroit-Lansing, is there really a need for this service? And who is going to pay for it?
KenB

Well, I have to believe that a Detroit-Lansing-GR-Chicago route would have more prospective riders than the current Port Huron-Lansing-Detroit route, but maybe not. I am sure that the current operating subsidy from the blue water would cover the operating costs (per rider, at least) for the DET-GR train, as they would likely be the same. The only capital costs I can see are some minor upgrades to the C&O, and maybe the construction of a few new stations, although local municipalities might pay for that.

I'd rather see them add a second Pere Marquette to the Chicago-Grand Rapids route.

They could run these trains all of the way from DET, through GR, to Detroit. This would have the same effect.

However, before anything else, I would rather see amtrak find a new route between Porter and Union Station.

[OwlCaboose2853]

willardgarrett,
Well, if you can for ask Michigan Association of Railroad Passengers http://www.marp.org/ about Detroit to Grand Rapids Amtrak, maybe Mi-Rail services. Brighton station removed. But I have no idea CSX will accept to allow for Det/GR Amtrak service. Along ago, GTW passenger services were Detroit thru to Durand, Grand Rapid and Muskegon.

[TrainWatcher]

Livonia to my knowledge has never had a depot. The only "depot" that I can find any information on was an old Interurban Depot that currently resides in Greenmeade Historical Village at 8 Mile and Newburgh Roads, FAR from any railroad. There was a team track near Stark Road, but currently there is no space in Livonia to build a new depot if the service would happen to exist. Also, you might as well add a depot in Redford too. The only place on the C&O East of the Diamond I am aware of that could currently be used is the Plymouth Depot. Now, also time that with the odd hours of the freight trains and with Q327/326 going away the long cuts of cars being shoved around by Q399/392. Your much better spending time on the Michigan Line and its only a 20~ minute drive for me from Livonia to the Amtrak Dearborn station should I choose to ride.

It would be a great thought, but until there has been mega planning for the infastructure, it wont happen. Also say you add Amtrak, there might have to be a signal upgrade, so say bye bye to the C&O Bridges from Plymouth East.

Newburgh Depot:
http://user.mc.net/~louisvw/depot/newburg/newbrg.htm

[J T]

I am slightly puzzled by Amtrak's current Blue Water service. Port Huron to Chicago seems like an odd route to me, especially when one considers that there is no service from Detroit to Grand Rapids. If the Blue Water train were eliminated, the largest (in terms of ridership) station closed would be Flint. With the money saved by closing this route, I am sure that Amtrak could either run a seperate train from Detroit to Grand Rapids, or better, extend the Pere Marquette route to Detroit. Either way, Lansing would retain the same frequency and service to Chicago, and the ridership would most likely increase substantially, probably enough to make up for the loss of Flint. In addition, Livonia would gain Amtrak service, as well as Brighton. Has this service ever been considered? It seems like the CSX line between the two cities is losing a lot of traffic, and I see potential for this line to eventually support multiple passenger trains per day, since it seems that there are only about 6 scheduled freights, and CSX has a more efficient route for through traffic. All of the trackage is already in place to allow these trains to run from the Detroit Amtrak station to GR. Any opinions?

Opinions? Only one: it's a railfan pipe dream.

[Robert MacDowell]

Sometimes people keep doing things long past the time of their relevance. In essence they do things because they always did it, and that comfort and nostalgia exceeds (for them alone) the sheer stupidity of doing it currently. You would never START doing the thing today, but they can't STOP. It's inertia.

A lot of workers couldn't fully appreciate Armistice Day, they had to be at the factory building bombers and ships.

The Blue Water is a Chicago-Toronto train. Unfortunately, post-9/11 the security got so ridiculous that the train couldn't get through, so Amtrak gave up and terminated it at Port Huron. I'm sure the "why support it" conversation has been had in Lansing.

But one reality (read the December TRAINS) is that freight railroads really dislike new routes, and charge princely sums for the "new infrastructure" neede to suport them.

I'm sure MDOT's fear is that if they shut off the Blue Water, CNNA would want a kings' ransom to restore it in the future.

[OwlCaboose2853]

Sometimes people keep doing things long past the time of their relevance. In essence they do things because they always did it, and that comfort and nostalgia exceeds (for them alone) the sheer stupidity of doing it currently. You would never START doing the thing today, but they can't STOP. It's inertia.

A lot of workers couldn't fully appreciate Armistice Day, they had to be at the factory building bombers and ships.

The Blue Water is a Chicago-Toronto train. Unfortunately, post-9/11 the security got so ridiculous that the train couldn't get through, so Amtrak gave up and terminated it at Port Huron. I'm sure the "why support it" conversation has been had in Lansing.

But one reality (read the December TRAINS) is that freight railroads really dislike new routes, and charge princely sums for the "new infrastructure" neede to suport them.

I'm sure MDOT's fear is that if they shut off the Blue Water, CNNA would want a kings' ransom to restore it in the future.

Well, when Amtrak Chicago to Toronto trains, they can do transfer to there, however, Detroit Depot then get a taxi to Detroit-Windsor Tunnel to Windsor Station, hop on VIA Windsor-Toronto.
Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum - http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.p ... o-windsor/

[sd70accsxt700]

Sometimes people keep doing things long past the time of their relevance. In essence they do things because they always did it, and that comfort and nostalgia exceeds (for them alone) the sheer stupidity of doing it currently. You would never START doing the thing today, but they can't STOP. It's inertia.

A lot of workers couldn't fully appreciate Armistice Day, they had to be at the factory building bombers and ships.

The Blue Water is a Chicago-Toronto train. Unfortunately, post-9/11 the security got so ridiculous that the train couldn't get through, so Amtrak gave up and terminated it at Port Huron. I'm sure the "why support it" conversation has been had in Lansing.

But one reality (read the December TRAINS) is that freight railroads really dislike new routes, and charge princely sums for the "new infrastructure" neede to suport them.

I'm sure MDOT's fear is that if they shut off the Blue Water, CNNA would want a kings' ransom to restore it in the future.

Actually for historys sake, sence you are going on about history, it was called the International, when it ran from Chicago to Toronto. The Blue Water is the name it had before when it first was started in 1974, between Chicago and Pt. Huron, and reincarnated in 2002 between the same cities.

[GAP]

I heard about a fellow who traveled this route by train many years ago. He went on the BEER Marquette and returned on the Grand DRUNK.

[Ben Higdon]

There has been talk in the past of routing the Grand Rapids to Chicago train via Kalamazoo. This would cut service to Holland and St Joe, but it has advantages, one of which would be the possibility of being able to take the train from Grand Rapids eastward by connecting to an eastbound at Kalamazoo.

[SD80MAC]

There has been talk in the past of routing the Grand Rapids to Chicago train via Kalamazoo. This would cut service to Holland and St Joe, but it has advantages, one of which would be the possibility of being able to take the train from Grand Rapids eastward by connecting to an eastbound at Kalamazoo.

I've heard the same thing except the train would terminate/originate in Holland.

[Bentrail]

Put the connection back in at lansing from the cn to csx then run amtrak from Port Huron to GRR/Chicago.
And it open the door for cn reroute.

[KenB]

Ben: Why would you want to cut service to Holland? Keep the Grand Rapids-Chicago service as it is. How many people go east out of GR? If you need to go east to Ann Arbor-Detroit, take the bus to Kalamazoo but if want to go to the east coast you have to go to Chicago anywhey. Right now you can leave GR, go to Chicago. Spend the day shoping or railfannng than get home that same night.
Keep the Bluewater as it is. Why add delays to the route?

KenB