Future Passenger Rail Routes?

[Sppengelly]

After some research and looking at a few articles from the Michigan By Rail website and attending their forums, I have gotten my mind thinking of what is possible in Michigan for passenger rail routes.

Here is my question for all of you:

-What routes should be considered for upgrades such as higher speeds, more parallel tracking, frequency, etc.
-What NEW routes that could feasible such as service to northern Michigan and even the UP.
-If it was an option, what about the rebuilding of abandoned lines (ex: Petoskey to Mackinaw City, etc) $$$??.

It is a very broad topic but I think it would be interesting to see what people who have some knowledge and passion for the subject have to say. When attending the Michigan By Rail forums, it dissapointing to see the VERY far fetched ideas of just putting random lines on the map (even though railroads and goverments can see that it what the public wants).

I have ideas of my own and I will post them later.

I am also very passionate about this topic (I also have an even storger passion for former Detroit & Mackinac Ry. history ) and I am planning on attending Michigan Tech for their growing Rail Transportation program and have kept close corresondence with the director of the program. I am hoping to evenually bring a stronger rail system (both freight and passenger) to Michigan and northern LP/UP Michigan.

Thanks
-Sean

[J T]

-What NEW routes that could feasible such as service to northern Michigan and even the UP.
-If it was an option, what about the rebuilding of abandoned lines (ex: Petoskey to Mackinaw City, etc) $$$??.

It is a very broad topic but I think it would be interesting to see what people who have some knowledge and passion for the subject have to say.

I have neither the knowledge nor the passion, but I can tell you one thing, the NIMBYs will never allow it.

[Clay320]

Ann Arbor to Traverse City would be nice. On GLC's website they say that that's one of the things they want to do.

Could board and the Durand Depot in the evening, have a five star dinner, get to see the scenery of northern Michigan, and arrive in Traverse City a little after breakfast the next day.

[AARR]

IMHO rail traffic will not materialize beyond major corridors in MI unless gas prices and / or traffic congestion become major issue(s).

I tend to agree with RRTTF and would like to see what happens if Amtrak increases number of trains between Detroit and Chicago. The time to get through an airport is growing and is just about at the point where people would consider another mode of transportation. However, for rail traffic to grow they MUST become more predictable in their arrival times. According to Amtraks own measurements (and reported in Trains Mag) the Detroit corridor had one of the 10 worst arrival records of all Amtrak routes (+/- 10-15 minutes given off stated time) at 62% on time. The good news is that it is up from several years ago 29%.

[Michael]

I can't imagine there is anyone that believes that any of the abaondoned lines could be rebuilt. We all hope, but it is not realistic. The Rails to Trails program is great because it does at least allow for the possibility as opposed to before when the land just reverted equally to adjacent landowners. I know this topic was brought up before and someone mentioned a rare case in where it did in fact happen somewhere in the Midwest.

[railroadchoad]

By every measure, the question of "If we build it will they (passengers) come?" has been answered with a resounding "YES!" One would be hard pressed to find an inter-city rail passenger start-up from the last 20 years or so that has not been a success in terms of ridership numbers alone.

Hell, look at how well all of the Michigan trains do with sub-standard timekeeping and limited amounts of rolling stock availability! Imagine what could be achieved with greater frequencies of on-time trains. A dedicated passenger corridor around the southern end of Lake Michigan would go a long way toward improving time-keeping, BTW.

As always, it all comes down to money. That is something that is in short supply these days and there are those who are in power who want to use what transportation money is available and simply pave roads with it. While I enjoy a smooth road as much as the next person, a well-balanced transportation policy at both the state and Federal level is needed. We cannot continue to put all of our eggs in a fossil-fuel-dependant, auto-centric transportation policy.

The US should invite investment from overseas in order to help defray some of the ourlay of public money that is required to build a world-class pax-rail system.

Michigan sits amidst some of the busiest transportation lanes in America. Detroit-Cleveland-Pittsburgh, Detroit-Toledo-Columbus in addition to Detroit-Chicago should all be actively developed. The Ohio Rail Development Commision has a plan that addresses these same corridors. Their new Governor, however, thinks that passenger trains are a plague on civilization and will do nothing to improve passenger rail in the Buckeye state. Kasich is a real piece of work. Good job, Ohio!

In-state we should get serious about studying Grand Rapids to Detoit via Lansing as well as the Tri-Cities area to Southeast Michigan. If private/public partnerships can be forged there is much to be hopeful for. If we expect purely public investment in this era of shrinking state budgets we may as well stop dreaming.

Someone else posted that they think that NIMBYs would get in the way of meaningful improvement in passenger rail service but little do those people realize that proximity to passenger rail is often seen as an asset for your real estate's value in many markets. On the east coast as well as in the Chicago area ads for homes on the market often mention how far from the train station a home is located.

For those who believe that passenger Trains should not be operated because they don't make a profit I would challenge them to find one freeway which makes a profit or one publicly-owned Airport that makes profits after the bonds are paid for.

[Sean N]

A problem with passenger rail is that while it works in cities like NYC, Chicago or Tokyo due to density of the population, I don't see it would not work well in other areas. If you take the train to Grand Rapids or Cleveland how are you going to get around town? Cab or walk everywhere? that may work well in downtown Chicago or New York, but not well many other places.

[J T]

Someone else posted that they think that NIMBYs would get in the way of meaningful improvement in passenger rail service but little do those people realize that proximity to passenger rail is often seen as an asset for your real estate's value in many markets.

That was me. I don't disagree with your point above, but that fact is, if any type of new rail line (ROW) is proposed, or an old ROW that has been laying dormant for decades is proposed to be reactivated, the NIMBYs are going to come out of the woodwork to oppose any such development. Sure, it makes sense for passenger rail service to exist, but NO ONE is going to give up their private land for ugly, dirty and NOISY trains (the NIMBY perception). In the 1800s it was easy for the government and private companies to secure land for railroad development, but unfortunately, that is just not possible today.

[Michael]

I would LOVE to see Ann Arbor to Traverse City happen and got quite excited many years ago when the then new GLC talked about doing it but after seeing the WALLY project dragging and the Detroit to Ann Arbor line dragging along with even the simplest of changes to AMTRAK scheduling, etc... I am starting to lose hope that anything substantial can happen around here. Sorry, I'm a downer I know.

[PlymouthStationGuy]

Working out at Metro....Most of the flights heading out to other Michigan cities of full even as the airfare price goes up people will still fly its the fastest why to get from point A to point B. As a side note on my trip to Ft Lauderdale I went thru the full body scan so no problem I did not glow in the dark afterwards... and the only time you will get patted down if they find something on the full body scan then they check it outand the waiting time was only 5 mins to get thru TSA. So train travel to and from other Michigan cities besides the ones Amtrak goes to wont happen in the near or far future.

[CN_Okemos]

Ann Arbor to Traverse City would be nice. On GLC's website they say that that's one of the things they want to do.

Could board and the Durand Depot in the evening, have a five star dinner, get to see the scenery of northern Michigan, and arrive in Traverse City a little after breakfast the next day.

Travelling north on the GLC is very awesome, scenic. From what I understood from my railfan friends in Durand a couple of summers ago, the yard there which I believe is now owned by HESR/Rail America, well there's a stipulation that passengers on the trains are not allowed to travel thru the yard itself. Whether that was for insurance reasons or just simply because the railroads didnt want it I dont know but Im wondering if that has changed.

[CN_Okemos]

After some research and looking at a few articles from the Michigan By Rail website and attending their forums, I have gotten my mind thinking of what is possible in Michigan for passenger rail routes.

Here is my question for all of you:

-What routes should be considered for upgrades such as higher speeds, more parallel tracking, frequency, etc.
-What NEW routes that could feasible such as service to northern Michigan and even the UP.
-If it was an option, what about the rebuilding of abandoned lines (ex: Petoskey to Mackinaw City, etc) $$$??.

It is a very broad topic but I think it would be interesting to see what people who have some knowledge and passion for the subject have to say. When attending the Michigan By Rail forums, it dissapointing to see the VERY far fetched ideas of just putting random lines on the map (even though railroads and goverments can see that it what the public wants).

I have ideas of my own and I will post them later.

I am also very passionate about this topic (I also have an even storger passion for former Detroit & Mackinac Ry. history ) and I am planning on attending Michigan Tech for their growing Rail Transportation program and have kept close corresondence with the director of the program. I am hoping to evenually bring a stronger rail system (both freight and passenger) to Michigan and northern LP/UP Michigan.

Thanks
-Sean

While it would be awesome to have the rails restored from Petoskey to Mackinaw City, I dont see that happening. I travelled that corridor on US 31 last summer thru Pellston and all that and you can see where the former roadbed was but it would take so many millions to rebuild that and Im sure coordinating with the cities involved and the state and all it would be beyond quite an undertaking. Also last summer I went into the UP from St Ignace to Trout Lake where CN has their junction. You can see the old roadbed as you get off 75 and travel towards Trout Lake but again, if there was any need for rail service for customers between those 2 cities then CN would have the capital to rebuild it, and it would be easier as much of that land goes thru woods and not many built up buildings or houses. However, CN still actively uses the line to Sault Ste Marie. When I was there in Trout Lake they had an IC engine ready to work that day along with a Wisconsin Central snowplow still in WC paint. I dont see how the UP could gain many more customers but it would be cool. Im not trying to deminish your thoughts or ideas, I think it would be AWESOME if lines got restored or more business was involved. One thing Ill remember forever was my trip in Sept 1989 with my dad on the former Detroit and Mackinac and Central Michigan from Durand to Cheboygan. It was a passenger excursion by Bluewater Michigan that went to Mackinac Island for the weekend. That day we had the Detroit and Mackinac 1280 pulling us which I believe is still in use by Lake States Railway. Northern Michigan is a terrific place and I love making it up there on a yearly basis now and going along former rail lines and visiting old depots. Feel free to private message me if you want to talk about things up there further.

[AARR]

One thing Ill remember forever was my trip in Sept 1989 with my dad on the former Detroit and Mackinac and Central Michigan from Durand to Cheboygan. It was a passenger excursion by Bluewater Michigan that went to Mackinac Island for the weekend. That day we had the Detroit and Mackinac 1280 pulling us which I believe is still in use by Lake States Railway.

1280 and other LSRC ALCo's are stored either servicable or unservicable.

[LSRC]

By every measure, the question of "If we build it will they (passengers) come?" has been answered with a resounding "YES!" One would be hard pressed to find an inter-city rail passenger start-up from the last 20 years or so that has not been a success in terms of ridership numbers alone.

What you're failing to see here is that the new rail service that has started up in other states has all been well planned and well executed. You can't just throw some rails down and run some junk between point A and point B and think that a large mass of people will show up every day to ride this thing.

My personal feeling is that Michigan is pretty well covered as far as passenger rail goes. I'd like to see another train added to the Michigan line, and have Amtrak stop directly at the Detroit Metro Airport.

I think it would be extremely hard for passenger rail to tap into the tourism business in places like Traverse City and Mackinac, simply because the cities are spread out. Most things are not close together like they are in Chicago. Plus, why would the average Michigander tourist pay to haul all of their suitcases to someplace like Traverse City, only to walk around. Most like the convenience of driving their own car. It's also much faster to drive than to take a hypothetical train to someplace like TC.

[Clay320]

I think it would be extremely hard for passenger rail to tap into the tourism business in places like Traverse City and Mackinac, simply because the cities are spread out. Most things are not close together like they are in Chicago. Plus, why would the average Michigander tourist pay to haul all of their suitcases to someplace like Traverse City, only to walk around. Most like the convenience of driving their own car. It's also much faster to drive than to take a hypothetical train to someplace like TC.

If you could market the train as part of the "experience" I think it could work. Board in the evening and have a great dinner, spend the night on the train and arrive the next morning in TC. You'd probably have to do 20-30 mph the whole time to make the trip long enough but it could work.

In TC there'd be enough to do for a weekend I think. Could spend a whole day at the beach. Add in a evening in downtown & a trip to the mini steam train at Clinch Park plus the other tourist stuff in the area and you've got a nice weekend up north. The TC station on GLC, Downtown, the little train, and the beach are all in walking distance. Have a bus take them from the train to downtown and and back and your all set. No need to get a hotel if you'd be in TC more than a day, you spent the night on the train coming and going why not spend a night on it while your still in TC?

That would allow for leaving Durand on Friday evening have dinner on the train, and arrive in TC Saturday morning. You have all day Saturday and most of Sunday to be in TC. Board Sunday evening, have dinner on the train and be back in Durand by Monday morning.

Just thinking out loud...well kinda, typing is pretty quite.

[SD80MAC]

That's sounding more like a tourist/dinner train operation than a viable passenger train. That being said, I think that area has potential for another dinner type train, but it'd have to be done right.

[mrpilot88]

I think that this idea is very interesting. Quite obviously this operation, if carried out, would be more of a tourist type passenger rail. In a general sense I think it could work if it's done properly. It would be cool if a train left Ann Arbor on a late Friday afternoon and arrived in Traverse City on Saturday morning. Then if you could have a shuttle bus to and from hotels and other points of interest to handle to transportation. There are a lot of possibilities when it comes to these things. Also it would be cool if the train back to Ann Arbor left at around 9-10am Sunday morning so it would be a daylight train in order to catch the scenery. Something about daily passenger service on the Great Lakes Central doesn't seem practical, however with the gas prices the way they are it may not be the worst projection ever. If people could travel between Ann Arbor and Traverse City or Mackinaw for a cheaper price than to drive a lot of people will consider it.

[Sppengelly]

What about the former Michigan Northern Railway??? They ran passenger trains to Mackinaw City, Petoskey, etc. What were there services and operations like? Was it an actuall passenger train or more of a tourist train? I don't know how sucessful it was but from what I have heard it was very short lived.

-Sean

[SD80MAC]

It's my understanding that MIGN's passenger trains were not regularly scheduled trains and were ran more as excursions.

[AARR]

It's my understanding that MIGN's passenger trains were not regularly scheduled trains and were ran more as excursions.

You are correct, Jon.

I am enjoying the discussion guys. Some of you have very good ideas. However, service between AA and TC for anything other than an occasional excursion will not be profitable and require subsidies.