Hot Box Detectors - Where Are They?

[azimmer]

I was standing at Delray and watching a slow moving (about 10mph) CN mixed freight on the Conrail Shared Assets. The train was crossing Dearborn Street and I was located on the sidewalk about 3-4 feet from the moving railcars.

After a few minutes I suddenly smelled an acrid, almost nauseating, kind of odor coming from somewhere. Then I could feel some heat. Right in front of me I saw that the axle on one of the cars had completly seized and the motionless wheels were being dragged across the rails. The friction was producing a lot of heat and also the scent of very hot, almost burning, metal.

This train was a southbound CN. Those wheels could have been dragging all the way from East yard or maybe even farther. I also knew that once the train cleared Delray it would increase its speed until at least Flat Rock.

Where are the hot box detectors on this stretch? Is it possible for axles to seize in transit after a train has left the originating yard? Does Conrail fine CN for almost wrecking its tracks?

[Mr. Tops]

Did you call and report this to CN? Even calling the crossing hotline on the crossbucks will work. If you didn't this time, make sure to next. Engine number, direction, train symbol, car reporting marks, as much info as you can give them. If the axle was seized up, it's just a matter of time before it is compromised and could cause a potential derailment; and with it being a tank car, loaded with who knows what, you could be the hero.

The only time axles seize sitting in the yard is when someone doesn't take the handbrake off, or if there is a problem with the brake rigging and the brakes don't release when the rest of the train does. That can happen en route. I've had that happen to me where all 4 axles where locked up tight, ALL brakeshoes were melted off and the metal base was grinding and widdling away against the wheels leaving nice groves and making a nice spark show. Handbrake was off, cut the air out on the car and it was a little better but I still set it out as it didn't have any brakes and the wheels were grooved. I don't know about other railroads, but UP's hot box detectors, the heat sensor is very concentrated on the journal/bearing area. So a car such as this where it's not a journal/bearing problem didn't set off any detectors although I too could feel the heat, after we were apprised of the situation, stopped and walked 40 cars back to the car.

I don't work in the car department, but when a journal overheats I don't believe the axle seizes. It keeps turning until the jornal is compromized, melts, disintegrates and then the car will (most likely) derail. The track is not almost wrecked, the wheel will take the brunt of it if it was seized and sliding. It will have a nice big flat spot on it. Now, a car with a big flat spot on the wheel could damage the rail. Say for example if that axle was seized up for a while, got a big flat spot on it, then started rolling again, pounding that big flat spot down on the rails.

[CSX_CO]

I don't know about other railroads, but UP's hot box detectors, the heat sensor is very concentrated on the journal/bearing area. So a car such as this where it's not a journal/bearing problem didn't set off any detectors although I too could feel the heat, after we were apprised of the situation, stopped and walked 40 cars back to the car.

I believe you are right about most hot box detectors focusing only on the journal. CSX had installed "Stuck Brake Detectors" on either side of Garrett Yard at the first HBD locations. They were noted in the timetable as being 'stuck brake' detectors. Supposed to catch hand brakes that got left on before they made really big flat spots. To be honest, I never really paid that much attention to them, to see what made them different.

I think eventually a stuck brake will heat up enough to trip a HBD though. Never fails on Q108 that the New Bloomington, OH Detector will catch a stuck brake on the train from when cars were added at Avon. Only takes 180 miles to get it hot enough to trip a HBD.

A sliding wheel from a tight handbrake has a particular smell and sound to it. It was the goal on the pullers at Avon to 'slide the wheels' when you put a brake on a cut, because you knew that was a wheel that wasn't going to be going anywhere and should hold anything in the yard. Tougher to do now with the brake sticks, you can't get a brake on as tight.

Practice Safe CSX

[bdconrail29]

Speaking of which, do trains have to be going above a certain speed for them to operate correctly? I was at Vermilion once and the NS detector there went, "Norfolk Southern. Milepost 2 2 0 . 9. Track 2. No Defects. Train too slow."

[Y@]

Speaking of which, do trains have to be going above a certain speed for them to operate correctly? I was at Vermilion once and the NS detector there went, "Norfolk Southern. Milepost 2 2 0 . 9. Track 2. No Defects. Train too slow."

I've never personally heard that before, but I believe I was once told by an NS employee that I know that for the DD to work right, the train must be going at least 5 mph. That may not be the case with all Class I's though.

[cbehr91]

Speaking of which, do trains have to be going above a certain speed for them to operate correctly? I was at Vermilion once and the NS detector there went, "Norfolk Southern. Milepost 2 2 0 . 9. Track 2. No Defects. Train too slow."

I've read 8 MPH in timetables. But it could be different between different models of detectors.

[azimmer]

Did you call and report this to CN? Even calling the crossing hotline on the crossbucks will work. If you didn't this time, make sure to next.

If there is a next time. I doubt if I'll ever see something like this again since the authorities are coming down hard on railfans. Every time I go out I get questioned and so I am not going out anymore.

Anyway, here is an image of the train with the stuck wheel. The original is 1600x1066 but the Flickr folks have cut it down to a max of 1024x682.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/65291139@N ... otostream/

CN5638 crosses the diamonds at Delray Junction with stuck axle somewhere.

[Jochs]

Speaking of which, do trains have to be going above a certain speed for them to operate correctly? I was at Vermilion once and the NS detector there went, "Norfolk Southern. Milepost 2 2 0 . 9. Track 2. No Defects. Train too slow."

I've never personally heard that before, but I believe I was once told by an NS employee that I know that for the DD to work right, the train must be going at least 5 mph. That may not be the case with all Class I's though.

I've heard this in Elkhart, IN at milepost 420.9, as trains are slowly pulling into the nearby yard.
(Yeah, I know this is Michigan talk, but a good scanner can pick this up in Michigan ..Plus, Elkhart is only a few miles from Michigan. )

[esprrfan]

8 mph seems about right on ours. I hope you go out again, as long as your not doing anything wrong, your just enjoying your hobby. A few buffs helped me out a few years ago in Holland oh with a busted airhose, one ran home a got me another pipe wrench the trainmaster that came to "assist" gave the 3 of them new ballcaps.

[conrailman75]

Speaking of which, do trains have to be going above a certain speed for them to operate correctly? I was at Vermilion once and the NS detector there went, "Norfolk Southern. Milepost 2 2 0 . 9. Track 2. No Defects. Train too slow."

I've never personally heard that before, but I believe I was once told by an NS employee that I know that for the DD to work right, the train must be going at least 5 mph. That may not be the case with all Class I's though.

I've heard this in Elkhart, IN at milepost 420.9, as trains are slowly pulling into the nearby yard.
(Yeah, I know this is Michigan talk, but a good scanner can pick this up in Michigan ..Plus, Elkhart is only a few miles from Michigan. )

And you and your brother were just there a week ago today

[Mr. Tops]

UP special instructions used to list 10 mph as the minimal speed over the detectors or you would get an 'integrity failure'. Now, it has been updated to 15 mph and 'slow train' message. However, it seems each detector is different. Some, you can crawl over at 5, or even stop on, and they will still give you a readback after you've cleared them. I've still not heard the 'slow train' message.

[Norm]

Been waiting for this question to come up for some time. They can be helpful when railfanning. NS seems to have one about every ten miles. CN and CSX have them about 30 miles apart.

I have an Excel spreadsheet of all the defect detectors in Michigan that I'm aware of. Just don't know how to post it to the wiki. It includes mile posts and nearest crossing. A little help from Zack may be needed to get it on the wiki.

[PerRock]

I have an Excel spreadsheet of all the defect detectors in Michigan that I'm aware of. Just don't know how to post it to the wiki. It includes mile posts and nearest crossing. A little help from Zack may be needed to get it on the wiki.

Probably the easiest way is to upload it to Google Docs which will keep it in it's spreadsheet format, then link it here. There might be a way to embed the spreadsheet into a webpage if it's really desired.

peter

[M.D.Bentley]

I have encountered a few hand brakes that have been left on road trains. I am sure that everyone that is a railfan should have the area dispatchers / RR P.D. / emergency phone numbers available. Some times a road train will make a pick up with a handbrake that was left on. These can end up causing a lot of problems. PLEASE contact someone from the railroad line that you see a problem on. You may just save someones life. I thank you in advanced.

[GTW6401]

The emergency number to reach the CN Police Department is 1-800-465-9239.