DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts trade

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DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts trade

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From The Detroit News

March 25, 2013 at 1:00 am
Second Canada-U.S. rail tunnel plan touts trade

By Leonard N. Fleming

Detroit — A long-delayed second rail tunnel under the Detroit River to Windsor may finally break ground early next year, supporters say, creating jobs and bolstering international trade.

But the project to replace an old double train tunnel between the two cities still has some hurdles, including securing half the amount needed for the $400 million project from the U.S. and Canadian governments.

The Detroit-Windsor Crossing tunnel's proponents said the project will increase trade with Canada, link Detroit through to other high-volume ports and help make the city into a transportation center. The proposed tunnel along with the new bridge Gov. Rick Snyder wants to build to Canada will give the Detroit area a boost to compete with other markets, advocates said.

At least $200 million has been pledged by Continental Rail Gateway — a coalition of two private organizations and the Windsor Port Authority, said county and rail officials, adding they hope the remaining $200 million will be pledged by year's end.

The project has a big backer in Wayne County Executive Robert Ficano, who has touted it would create nearly 2,000 jobs and transform the region into a transportation hub for rail and truck commerce.

Ficano, who mentioned the tunnel project in his recent state of the county address, said it will be a boon for the region because it will allow double-stacked rail cars to move between the two countries. The tunnel the trains use today is not tall enough to accommodate double-stacked container cars.

"We're hoping that there can be some real fruition that's ultimately going to result in a new tunnel," he said.

Ficano said creating a tunnel to accommodate double-stacking trains is key. "You'll find that whether it'd be shipping by sea or even by truck and most rail, double stacking is now standard procedure for how they move rail," he said.

The project hinges on funding from the United States and Canada but advocates of the project say the $200 million put on the table by Canadian Pacific and the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System should send a message to the two countries that the effort is serious.

Officials said they expect environmental approvals to come soon, perhaps as early as the next few months, from both governments, which would keep the project moving.

"They are putting a lot of private skin on the table, which is always enticing to the government," said Cindy Dingell, the deputy chief operating officer for Wayne County. "But the other thing, too, is we have to get the environmental clearances done before it proceeds to the next level."

Existing tunnel too small

The Jobs Tunnel, as it was called when it was proposed in 2003, was opposed by some because it would have included converting the old tunnels for use by trucks. But, when it was determined there was not enough space in the tunnel to put in lanes for trucks, the plan became rail only.

Officials have estimated the new 1.6-mile tunnel would take up to two years to complete and would be built about 150 feet to the west of the one that opened in 1909.

The idea for the new tunnel emerged after it was determined the existing one couldn't be made any larger. That tunnel was heightened in 1993, but to go any higher makes the structure vulnerable to taking in water from the river.

Mickey Blashfield, a spokesman for Ambassador Bridge owner Manuel "Matty" Moroun, who strongly opposes the construction of a government-backed bridge to Canada, said given that the truck option is out of the project, Moroun is good with a new rail tunnel if it can be built.

"We're certainly not opposed to it," Blashfield said.

"The concept of a rail tunnel is certainly desirable for the region."

Boost to both communities

Marge Byington, corporate affairs director for Continental Rail Gateway, said land for the project has been acquired.

Byington said the Michigan Department of Transportation is helping to fight for the federal dollars, but there are "multiple options" such as grants and loans her company can get to push the project to the finish line.

"We feel very secure that this project is going forward," she said.

County and rail officials said discussions are under way to use the old tunnel, which is just south of the Michigan Train Depot, for creating a passenger rail some day because it is still in very good condition.

County officials estimated with the building of the tunnel, Canadian ports in Montreal and Halifax will double their shipping by the year 2020 while bringing more volume through the region.

"It takes away the hassle that some of the shipping companies have of going into Norfolk, going into Baltimore, going into New York or even going to Philly," said Ray Byers, Wayne County's chief economic development officer, "because it's a straighter shot."

David Cree, the president and CEO of the Windsor Port Authority, said he expects "we will be shovel-ready by early next year."

Cree said the Canadian government will soon begin reviewing its 2014 budget that includes infrastructure projects, and the private money pledged should help shake his government's commitment loose.

"This is going to give the Detroit-Windsor area all the pieces with the new bridge, the new double-stacked rail tunnel, to build a really significant multi-modal center, which is going to bring in a lot of jobs and a lot of benefits to the two communities," Cree said.

lfleming@detroitnews.com

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2013 ... z2OYKv5Khq

----------------------

Ironically, the photo included in the paper is of a CP Rail doublestack train exiting the tunnel......doh!! :shock:

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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GP30M4216 wrote:Image

From The Detroit News

March 25, 2013 at 1:00 am
Second Canada-U.S. rail tunnel plan touts trade

By Leonard N. Fleming

Detroit — A long-delayed second rail tunnel under the Detroit River to Windsor may finally break ground early next year, supporters say, creating jobs and bolstering international trade.

But the project to replace an old double train tunnel between the two cities still has some hurdles, including securing half the amount needed for the $400 million project from the U.S. and Canadian governments.

The Detroit-Windsor Crossing tunnel's proponents said the project will increase trade with Canada, link Detroit through to other high-volume ports and help make the city into a transportation center. The proposed tunnel along with the new bridge Gov. Rick Snyder wants to build to Canada will give the Detroit area a boost to compete with other markets, advocates said.

At least $200 million has been pledged by Continental Rail Gateway — a coalition of two private organizations and the Windsor Port Authority, said county and rail officials, adding they hope the remaining $200 million will be pledged by year's end.

The project has a big backer in Wayne County Executive Robert Ficano, who has touted it would create nearly 2,000 jobs and transform the region into a transportation hub for rail and truck commerce.

Ficano, who mentioned the tunnel project in his recent state of the county address, said it will be a boon for the region because it will allow double-stacked rail cars to move between the two countries. The tunnel the trains use today is not tall enough to accommodate double-stacked container cars.

"We're hoping that there can be some real fruition that's ultimately going to result in a new tunnel," he said.

Ficano said creating a tunnel to accommodate double-stacking trains is key. "You'll find that whether it'd be shipping by sea or even by truck and most rail, double stacking is now standard procedure for how they move rail," he said.

The project hinges on funding from the United States and Canada but advocates of the project say the $200 million put on the table by Canadian Pacific and the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System should send a message to the two countries that the effort is serious.

Officials said they expect environmental approvals to come soon, perhaps as early as the next few months, from both governments, which would keep the project moving.

"They are putting a lot of private skin on the table, which is always enticing to the government," said Cindy Dingell, the deputy chief operating officer for Wayne County. "But the other thing, too, is we have to get the environmental clearances done before it proceeds to the next level."

Existing tunnel too small

The Jobs Tunnel, as it was called when it was proposed in 2003, was opposed by some because it would have included converting the old tunnels for use by trucks. But, when it was determined there was not enough space in the tunnel to put in lanes for trucks, the plan became rail only.

Officials have estimated the new 1.6-mile tunnel would take up to two years to complete and would be built about 150 feet to the west of the one that opened in 1909.

The idea for the new tunnel emerged after it was determined the existing one couldn't be made any larger. That tunnel was heightened in 1993, but to go any higher makes the structure vulnerable to taking in water from the river.

Mickey Blashfield, a spokesman for Ambassador Bridge owner Manuel "Matty" Moroun, who strongly opposes the construction of a government-backed bridge to Canada, said given that the truck option is out of the project, Moroun is good with a new rail tunnel if it can be built.

"We're certainly not opposed to it," Blashfield said.

"The concept of a rail tunnel is certainly desirable for the region."

Boost to both communities

Marge Byington, corporate affairs director for Continental Rail Gateway, said land for the project has been acquired.

Byington said the Michigan Department of Transportation is helping to fight for the federal dollars, but there are "multiple options" such as grants and loans her company can get to push the project to the finish line.

"We feel very secure that this project is going forward," she said.

County and rail officials said discussions are under way to use the old tunnel, which is just south of the Michigan Train Depot, for creating a passenger rail some day because it is still in very good condition.

County officials estimated with the building of the tunnel, Canadian ports in Montreal and Halifax will double their shipping by the year 2020 while bringing more volume through the region.

"It takes away the hassle that some of the shipping companies have of going into Norfolk, going into Baltimore, going into New York or even going to Philly," said Ray Byers, Wayne County's chief economic development officer, "because it's a straighter shot."

David Cree, the president and CEO of the Windsor Port Authority, said he expects "we will be shovel-ready by early next year."

Cree said the Canadian government will soon begin reviewing its 2014 budget that includes infrastructure projects, and the private money pledged should help shake his government's commitment loose.

"This is going to give the Detroit-Windsor area all the pieces with the new bridge, the new double-stacked rail tunnel, to build a really significant multi-modal center, which is going to bring in a lot of jobs and a lot of benefits to the two communities," Cree said.

lfleming@detroitnews.com

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2013 ... z2OYKv5Khq

----------------------

Ironically, the photo included in the paper is of a CP Rail doublestack train exiting the tunnel......doh!! :shock:

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by AARR »

CN builds a tunnel that can accomodate domestic doublestack containers but only develops a modest business for it.

CP builds a tunnel that cannot but has a bigger share.

Maybe they can save some money and just switch tunnels :wink:
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by railohio »

AARR wrote:CN builds a tunnel that can accomodate domestic doublestack containers but only develops a modest business for it. CP builds a tunnel that cannot but has a bigger share.
Aren't the current tunnels former NYC that CP purchased when Conrail cleansed itself of the CASO?
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by MSchwiebert »

That is correct. They were originally built by the New York Central. Interesting that the article talks so much about Halifax. If I recall correctly, Halifax is exclusively served by CN, and I would doubt very highly that they would have much interest in a new tube from Detroit to Windsor when their Pt. Huron one is currently underutilized.

It'll be good for CP though, regardless of how they get their trains from Detroit to Chicago.
railohio wrote:
AARR wrote:CN builds a tunnel that can accomodate domestic doublestack containers but only develops a modest business for it. CP builds a tunnel that cannot but has a bigger share.
Aren't the current tunnels former NYC that CP purchased when Conrail cleansed itself of the CASO?

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by Marylee »

So, here is a long discussed piece falling into the pie. Who thinks as we speak, EHH is trying to figure how to buy CP's own route to Chicago? NS has worked well enough with trackage rights, but that isn't EHH style as shown at CN. Can't buy the Wabash or waterlevel, so only CSX GR is available.

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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Another question is if this new tunnel will be designed to handle the tonnage of coal trains incase clean coal causes a boom or for export of Canadian coal to other markets?
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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Chrisracer8903 wrote:Another question is if this new tunnel will be designed to handle the tonnage of coal trains incase clean coal causes a boom or for export of Canadian coal to other markets?
You are very observant! Once CP completes its line from Rapid City to the Wyoming coal fields unit trains of coal will be flowing across MI through the tunnels to eastern destinations :P :wink:
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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AARR wrote:
Chrisracer8903 wrote:Another question is if this new tunnel will be designed to handle the tonnage of coal trains incase clean coal causes a boom or for export of Canadian coal to other markets?
You are very observant! Once CP completes its line from Rapid City to the Wyoming coal fields unit trains of coal will be flowing across MI through the tunnels to eastern destinations :P :wink:
Haha, I was focusing more towards the Canadian coal trains that are exported to China. What if they had an opportunity to export coal for Europe, South America, or even power plants in Eastern Canada?
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by GTW6401 »

Marylee wrote:So, here is a long discussed piece falling into the pie. Who thinks as we speak, EHH is trying to figure how to buy CP's own route to Chicago? NS has worked well enough with trackage rights, but that isn't EHH style as shown at CN. Can't buy the Wabash or waterlevel, so only CSX GR is available.
CP and NS have a cozy relationship right now. NS uses trackage rights over the D&H to reach their investments in New England, and the switch from CSX to NS back in 2005 was apart of those moves out east.

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by Super Chief »

AARR please clarify the Rapid City to Wyoming quote. I thought CP was selling the DME and the coal line was a dead horse? As I read it in Trains were'nt they going to sell basically everything west of Huron SD? Is there new news on this or an about face from EHH?

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by railohio »

Super Chief wrote:AARR please clarify the Rapid City to Wyoming quote. I thought CP was selling the DME and the coal line was a dead horse? As I read it in Trains were'nt they going to sell basically everything west of Huron SD? Is there new news on this or an about face from EHH?
I believe he's just mocking Chris.
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Yer right, I didn't catch on the first go around. :oops:

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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railohio wrote:
Super Chief wrote:AARR please clarify the Rapid City to Wyoming quote. I thought CP was selling the DME and the coal line was a dead horse? As I read it in Trains were'nt they going to sell basically everything west of Huron SD? Is there new news on this or an about face from EHH?
I believe he's just mocking Chris.
I was joking with Chris :lol: . The Wyoming extension was declared dead a while back.
Last edited by AARR on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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My cat can't type worth crap either! Stupid cats! :mrgreen:

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by GP30M4216 »

County and rail officials said discussions are under way to use the old tunnel, which is just south of the Michigan Train Depot, for creating a passenger rail some day because it is still in very good condition.
If intercity, international passenger rail is ever to be truly successful with a route between Chicago and Toronto/Montreal, there needs to be a way to link the Michigan Line in Detroit with a suitable Canadian route toward the east. Unfortunately, historically in the past 40 years, no coordination has existed. While the Michigan Line remains a primary artery for passenger rail on the Michigan side, in Ontario, VIA rail adopted, and in some places has outright purchased portions of the old CN line going east from Walkerville. VIA has just completed a new station beside their older one in the shadow of the Walkerville distillery. The movement away from the CASO and eventual downgrading and tear out of portions of that line eliminated the current tunnel setup from being a real option for passenger rail. VIA's new commitment to the Walkerville terminal area means they won't be moving their depot to a more-through-route-friendly location anytime soon. The right of way still exists to get a train going eastbound from the tunnel portal in Canada to the Walkerville station location, but much of it is at-grade terminal trackage of the Essex Terminal Railway, and some of it is abandoned/paved over.

Ironically, if a tunnel were to begin as a straightaway going compass west out of the current Walkerville depot, without curving it would end up hitting the Detroit shore in the neighborhood of Joe Louis Arena, itself built atop an old railroad yard which did connect to the Michigan Line and current North tunnel portal. It would be a much longer tunnel crossing under the river at this angle, but in theory a more direct route to Toronto linking the MC Depot area/Amtrak Michigan Line with VIA's Chatham Sub. at the current Walkerville depot location.

It's nice to know the old 1909 tunnel is still in good condition....happy 104th birthday!!

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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I must have missed something. How is a new tunnel going to increase trade with Canada? Are we losing trade because of a lack of tunnel capacity? Are trains lined up for miles, waiting their turn in the tunnel? Is Southeastern Michigan manufacturing and industrial activity being stifled by lack of tunnel capacity? I don't see a rush back to Michigan by the nations corporations, looking to do business here. Our manufacturing is gone! I don't see it coming back anytime soon.
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

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GTW6401 wrote:
Marylee wrote:So, here is a long discussed piece falling into the pie. Who thinks as we speak, EHH is trying to figure how to buy CP's own route to Chicago? NS has worked well enough with trackage rights, but that isn't EHH style as shown at CN. Can't buy the Wabash or waterlevel, so only CSX GR is available.
CP and NS have a cozy relationship right now. NS uses trackage rights over the D&H to reach their investments in New England, and the switch from CSX to NS back in 2005 was apart of those moves out east.
The D&H topic is interesting because Hunter Harrison's plans that were in the press release mentioned not only selling the DM&E, but also the D&H to another possible "Class 1 User" such as Norfolk Southern. I'm not going to speculate anymore about CP across Michigan, but I won't "bury" it either. I could see EHH selling off the D&H to NS since it is more of a benefit to them and is a profit loser to CP like the DM&E is. If CP sold the D&H to another carrier like NS doesn't that forfeit their deal on the Wabash? I don't work for CP or have any idea what they are planning, but I find it interesting how they want a new tunnel in Detroit and that's is a big project for CP to have in an area where their trains are under control of NS. Also, CP has been earning money with the removal of the CASO and the tremendous amount of trackage they removed in the Ottawa Valley. If they sold the DM&E and the D&H, wouldn't CP have the money to invest and expand in other areas that benefit them such as Michigan?
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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by Ben Higdon »

hoborich wrote:I must have missed something. How is a new tunnel going to increase trade with Canada? Are we losing trade because of a lack of tunnel capacity? Are trains lined up for miles, waiting their turn in the tunnel? Is Southeastern Michigan manufacturing and industrial activity being stifled by lack of tunnel capacity? I don't see a rush back to Michigan by the nations corporations, looking to do business here. Our manufacturing is gone! I don't see it coming back anytime soon.
This project may create a handful of RR operating crew positions for the Detroit area. Other than that it looks like little more than a good deal for consultants, politicians and the construction industry. CP would benefit, but as far as serving the public good, I don't see the benefit approaching $400 million + the inevitable "unanticipated increases in the cost of construction".

How about instead we invest that money and use the interest to hire people to pick up trash.

No mention of why they couldn't lower the floor of one of the existing tunnels? I suppose if that was possible it would have already been done, but I haven't heard an explanation of why not.

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Re: DETROIT NEWS: Second Canada-US rail tunnel plan touts tr

Unread post by MagnumForce »

EHH is interested in making money, buying his own line and inheriting all that overhead when it is not necessary doesn't fall in line with that. Also does make sense with the Elkhart to Goshen work occurring which has a lot to do with CP.

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