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The Michigan Senate has passed a new law which makes its a felony to point a laser or any other directed energy devices, including sonic or particle-beam weapons, microwaves and radio frequencies at trains. Violators are subject to up to five year in prison and a fine of up to $250,000.

I wonder if the police will pay a reward if I provide them the names of some railfans that have walkie talkies transmitting illegally on railroad frequencies?

Don't some cameras use lasers to determine distance? That would be a neat reason for police to confiscate cameras from railfans. The camera is "evidence". No longer will the "I was just looking for my lost dog" excuse work when trespassing on railroad property.

Sounds like they mean business. Railfans, BEWARE!

Governor has signed into law making it a felony offense to aim "a beam of directed energy at emitted from a directed energy device" at a plane or train.

In looking at the law, aiming a spotlight (such as on a camera) at a train or plane could be charged as a felony.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/m ... 315550001/

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents ... B-4063.pdf

Looks like the vast majority of the info on this is about aircraft, with little info about trains. I don't know of any railfans that are using lasers on their cameras to light up the locomotive windshield. Hope they don't try to include flash arrays for nighttime shots, but those don't use "highly focused energy" as a laser would.
Turn down the paranoia NYC, take it easy.

~Z~ wrote:Looks like the vast majority of the info on this is about aircraft, with little info about trains. I don't know of any railfans that are using lasers on their cameras to light up the locomotive windshield. Hope they don't try to include flash arrays for nighttime shots, but those don't use "highly focused energy" as a laser would.
Turn down the paranoia NYC, take it easy.

yeah, what him said...the laser police aren't coming for you at the local train watching spot.

SORRY, but I posted the WRONG VERSION of the law. I accidentally posted the bill as initially introduced. But, HERE is the law that was passed. As you can see, TRAINS are included.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents ... B-4063.pdfmder

Many cameras use laser for range finding (distance).

So, my alleged "paranoia" is founded. And, do remember, just because you are paranoid does not mean that they aren't out to get you!

NYCMan wrote: Many cameras use laser for range finding (distance).

The vast majority of all dSLR, point and shoot, and cell phone cameras that railfans use do NOT use lasers for range finding. Even older cameras used infrared to focus. Modern cameras use an autofocus sensor in the camera for a passive measurement.

Well that's not fair! How am I supposed to cut the train in half now?

Schteinkuh wrote:Well that's not fair! How am I supposed to cut the train in half now?

I accidentally posted the bill as initially introduced.

Yeah. Trump did the same thing. And even held a "Mission Accomplished" party on the White House lawn.

NYCMan wrote:Many cameras use laser for range finding (distance).

So, my alleged "paranoia" is founded. And, do remember, just because you are paranoid does not mean that they aren't out to get you!

"....lighten up, Francis" (as Sergeant Hulka would say)

As ~Z~ has accurately pointed out, cameras don't generally use lasers for AF, so your paranoia is unfounded...and baseless. and here's why:

Even if your camera did use a laser for AF, there is a serious difference between the laser "beam" mentioned in this law (which is high-intensity & focused) vs. the "pulse" or "burst" that a late-model camera emits. It is this short burst that allows the camera to determine distance, something that would not be accurate if a steady stream were to be utilized for auto-focus. (I've learned a little bit from my Dad, who was a commercial photographer)

Besides, as a 20 yr. veteran engineer on the railroad, the only reaction I've ever had when noticing pic-takers along the wayside, is me looking at my conductor and saying...."Smile, you could be featured on next month's cover of TRAINS magazine!"

(not ...Oh, No! someone has a laser camera and he's pointing it at me! Call the cops!)

Sheesh!

-barny

Well technically this could extend to cops trying to give trains a speeding ticket, or any kind of scanning device used to detect or measure wheel defects. But genereally these laws only apply to visible LASER devises, Most sensor technology uses wavelengths beyond human visibility to avoid problems with incidental blinding. Some locomotives have a speed radar that points down at the ties for wheel slip monitoring, so the reflection of that beam could technically be an issue.

Also any consumer grade LASER range finder are usually class 1 which require no warnings and have no viewing/burn times. When you get above class II LASERS you need that little sticker on the device to warn you not to shine in somebody's eyeball or blindness will occur.

NYCMan wrote:I wonder if the police will pay a reward if I provide them the names of some railfans that have walkie talkies transmitting illegally on railroad frequencies?

A radio is not a laser or directed energy device.

The FCC might show interest in people transmitting illegally. The local police may show some interest if you can find a law that actually applies to a radio.

~Z~ wrote:Looks like the vast majority of the info on this is about aircraft, with little info about trains. I don't know of any railfans that are using lasers on their cameras to light up the locomotive windshield. Hope they don't try to include flash arrays for nighttime shots, but those don't use "highly focused energy" as a laser would.
Turn down the paranoia NYC, take it easy.

Well, I suggest that black paint put dot laser on their cameras.

justalurker66 wrote:

NYCMan wrote:I wonder if the police will pay a reward if I provide them the names of some railfans that have walkie talkies transmitting illegally on railroad frequencies?

A radio is not a laser or directed energy device.

The FCC might show interest in people transmitting illegally. The local police may show some interest if you can find a law that actually applies to a radio.

Actually, if you have a radio/scanner that can pick up police channels, while in a moving vehicle (at least in Michigan) you will be cited by police. Otherwise,
it is up to them if they want to report anyone for RR channel use, but they probably don't care...

I speak from experience, as someone who I met at work (near the RR yard) was a RRfan, and talked me into taking him on a jaunt to see some trains. When we stopped somewhere, a police officer at that location (a gas station near some tracks) asked what we were up to, so my acquaintance told him. He then asked me if I knew if his radio had their channels on it. That's when I found out about the law, and it's penalty if violated, and the officer checked every channel on his radio. Thankfully, it didn't!

-barny

The definition of "can" will cause trouble in some cases. If one is using a standard scanner which "can" be programmed for police frequencies it does not matter if the scanner is programmed for those frequencies. If the police officer recognizes the possibility of reception there can be a problem.

Often scanners can be programmed on the fly by typing in a frequency or scanning an entire band - so looking at the current programmed channel list or keying a police radio and seeing if the scanner responds at this moment is a bad test. I once allegedly caused interference on a police radio with a cellular telephone (a large bag phone) which the police officer thought was a scanner. Apparently a random transmission (phone checking in with tower) was powerful enough to interfere with his sensitive police radio.

I have a programmable commercial radio which requires special software to define the channels in advance. It is capable of being programmed with police frequencies but cannot be programmed on the fly. I have a bank of channels programmed receive only for local railroad frequencies. I also (with permission) have channels programmed for transmit and receive on police and fire frequencies.

The challenge is finding the right police officer. The type who consider any photograph taken to be a crime would probably not be the best judge as to whether or not a specific radio or programming was legal or illegal. Some officers understand the laws better than others. As long as I am not detained or end up having equipment confiscated I do not mind their misunderstandings.

In any case ... a radio is not a laser or directed energy device. The preexisting laws would apply to radios - the new law would apply to laser or directed energy devices. If one is using a radar gun or lidar to check the speed of trains while railfanning one would likely be violating the new law.

Michigan no longer has a law that forbids scanners in automobiles or anywhere else, even if they can get police frequencies.

Indiana, on the other hand, does have the rule against mobile scanners. However combine lack of enforcement with out-of-state plates, and I think a railfan who isn't doing anything wrong should be OK.

Saturnalia, your assertion that "there is no law" is way off base! In fact, Michigan law provides for criminal penalties if one possesses a scanner/receiver capable of receiving police frequencies while committing a crime. Trespassing on railroad property is a crime! Get caught on railroad property (a crime) with a scanner and... voila!... you now have 2 crimes! Lots of minor criminal offenses out there that, if you commit same while having a scanner, you get a potentially enhanced punishment.


750.508 Equipping vehicle with radio able to receive signals on frequencies assigned for police or certain other purposes; violation; penalties; radar detectors not applicable.
Sec. 508.

(1) A person who has been convicted of 1 or more felonies during the preceding 5 years shall not carry or have in his or her possession a radio receiving set that will receive signals sent on a frequency assigned by the federal communications commission of the United States for police or other law enforcement, fire fighting, emergency medical, federal, state, or local corrections, or homeland security purposes. This subsection does not apply to a person who is licensed as an amateur radio operator by the federal communications commission. A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00, or both.

(2) A person shall not carry or have in his or her possession in the commission or attempted commission of a crime a radio receiving set that will receive signals sent on a frequency assigned by the federal communications commission of the United States for police or other law enforcement, fire fighting, emergency medical, federal, state, or local corrections, or homeland security purposes.

I missed that change ... there is still a law on the books, but it only applies to criminals.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(d5opf3 ... cl-750-508

("A person who has been convicted of 1 or more felonies during the preceding 5 years" and "in the commission or attempted commission of a crime".)

The paranoid may worry about carrying such a radio while trespassing (since trespassing is a crime).

Transmitting on a frequency that one does not hold a license for would still be a problem, but one handled by federal law.

justalurker66 wrote:I missed that change ... there is still a law on the books, but it only applies to criminals.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(d5opf3 ... cl-750-508

("A person who has been convicted of 1 or more felonies during the preceding 5 years" and "in the commission or attempted commission of a crime".)

The paranoid may worry about carrying such a radio while trespassing (since trespassing is a crime).

Transmitting on a frequency that one does not hold a license for would still be a problem, but one handled by federal law.

Not a problem if the trespassing is less than a 93 day jail sentence.

Saturnalia wrote:Michigan no longer has a law that forbids scanners in automobiles or anywhere else, even if they can get police frequencies.

Indiana, on the other hand, does have the rule against mobile scanners. However combine lack of enforcement with out-of-state plates, and I think a railfan who isn't doing anything wrong should be OK.

Thanks for sharing this... guess I don't need to get that Ham license after all.