comments about railfanning in general

E · Unread post by E » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:13 pm

Im new to this board. My intention here is not to stir up any trouble. I just want to make a few comments on a couple of observations since i have been here. First off I would like to say im new to the whole railfanning thing.. not nessisarily new to being interested in trains in general.. but new to the idea of learning how the train scheduals and systems work, watching and chasing trains and especially coming on a message board to talk about it is somewhat new.. But here is what im a bit surprised at. Alot of rail fans seem to not only be big fans of the trains or the lines themselves.. but in the actual railroad companys. Now i understand this i guess in the context of the location of the lines and who owns them and being a fan because alot of times its a regional thing.. plus i see it.. as somone might be a fan of a railroad the same way a baseball fan is a fan of their favorite team. but when it comes to rail fanning.. I notice railfans being such big fans of these railroads they will defend them as companys.. Like these railroads can do no wrong. when it comes to any disputes between the cities and the railroads, or disputes between the railroads and private citizens..they seem to take the sides of the railroad everytime. Now i have talked to lots of railroad employees who are very friendly.. but It seems alot of times the owners of these companys have little regard or interest in the cities they serve or run thru, and even less concern for citizens who have adjacent properties.. These are companys whose owners are primarily interested in makeing money.. and probally little else.. thats probally too much of a generalization and more applys to the class 1 railroads, and not as much to some of the local shortlines, but i bet its not too far off in most cases. but the other thing i notice is that alot of rainfans take it apon themselves to be the railroads own secret police or somthing, like its their responsibility to keep an eye out for any tresspassers/loiters and or suspisious people around railroad property.. and i just think thats crazy. Anyone like to comment, explain, or defend this.. cuz I just dont get it.

MMRR-24 · Unread post by **MMRR-24** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:33 am

you have got a good point there. I will side agree that when I railfan all the railroad emplyees seem to be freindly. The engineer always seem to wave. But I have never had any trouble with any RR company ever. I dont trespass on RR property. Or do anything stupid. And I dont really care what railroad I watch, I enjoy them all. Cause there is no railroad within 20 miles of my house. And there is no "hometown" RR for me either. CSX is what I grew up watching. My Dad took me down to Wyoming Yard all the time when I was younger. Then there is the MMRR going through Greenville. Grew up with them to. No there gone from Greenville. Now there is nothing to look forward to when Mother goes shoping in Greenville. The Greenville yard is 100% vacent. Not a soul around.

SousaKerry · Unread post by **SousaKerry** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:09 am

I can understand your confusion but my experiance is most fans are loyal to the railroad they grew up with, I for example grew up in Ohio next to the B&O now CSX so I am partial to them. Now my hometown railroad is NS but I still wach them when I can just because of proximity. I am also very partial to roads that no longer exsist one of my favorites is the Lehigh Valley can't rally explain why I guess just the atractive paint schemes and a huge Alco fleet, of coarse the main lines are mostly tore up and I have never seen any of the facilities but someday I will build a model railroad loosely based on them in the presnt day as if Conrail never happend. Part of the fun with this hobby is a little bit of fantasy and wondering what if. Very few railfans are actually employed by the railroads so I guess we don't see the day to day politcal aspects and we look at our favorite railroads through rose colored glasses. but that seems to be part of the fun.

I'm sure others will have different views but these are mine.

SousaKerry

sd70accsxt700 · Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:03 pm

Well this is the way I see it. As far as being fans of specific companies, it is like Sousa said, most fans are loyal to a company around the specific area they grew up, or are most exposed to. Its kind of like the hometown thing, most people are proud to say they grew up or live in a certin town, no matter how bad or good it is. As far as defending them, it would have to depend on the situation. For example, the two most recent situations, that come to mind, where we have defended, the railroad, is the one in GR with the tank cars, and the one in Jackson, with the whole tree thing. In both cases, who you should defend, should go back in history. I would venture to guess, and I would guess to say that I am probilly 99% correct in this guess, that the railroads forerunners, ( in this case PM and NYC), both were there long before, the people were. Both railroads in this case where there before the 1900's. So the only way the people could have been there before, was if there ancestors owned the property that the railroad built on. And if such is the case that the railroad, was there before them, then in both casees the railroad should be defended. In the case of the NS with the trees, those trees wernt over a 100 yeas old, and they sure dont look like they grew there because of nature ( I say that because it looks like they were all planted in a row, not just at random). that means that someone else planted them there on railroad property, after moving into along side of the railroad. If the said emplyees did laugh in there face when confronted, they souldent have done that. Thre should be reprmands for that, they sould have treeted the people with more respect. As far as flowers and trees go, should have been on there property not the railroads. So first off if you dont like the railroad why move in along side of the tracks. Secondly, it is there property, you shouldent be planting or dooing anything on someone eles property, with out permisson. If it is on there property, it is there decison, to remove said objects, with out contacting the persons who put them there in the first place. The same can be said, about the whole deal in GR too. Said person, knew, especally being a "railfan", that there are tracks there, and having known this, should have fully expected that somthing may eventually be parked there. As far as the argument of "Well the water plant is right over there", well the city or county, should have thought better about the placement of there complex then. I mean why would you want to place a water plant next to somthing that you know is carrying and storing potentally dangerous products, that could potentally contanmate a water supply. Sould have built it somewhere else. As far as the terror subject, terrorists goal is to inflict terror into people, by killing thousands of innocent people, or by distroying things we need. I dont know about you, but blowing up some LPG cars, while causing a big bang, and mabey killing a few (less than 10) people, and possably dammaging the water plant, wouldent be a terrorfying thing. Yes LPG getting into the water would not be a good thing, but I highley dbought it would be on the list of thing they are going to do. Once again the railroad was there first, so you should expect things to be there. What is the alternative, lets not ship anything until its needed? Where are you going to store all that stuff until it can be carried from its origin to its destionation? All of this is kind of akin to you renting a place, wether it be a house or a apartment, and you plant flowers or trees, and later the owner comes along and need to make improvements, or lest just say you planted them over a septic feeld, and now it needs repairs. Where do you or anyone have the right, to say you cant fix that, because, I planted or did somthing there. On the subject of the railroads not careing about the communities they travle through, I would 100% agree with you. Four example the "city" or "village" of Walbridge, Oh. CSX has donated money for the community, for ballfields, and other stuff. The most recent example is a electrical, programable sign, that the city has put in the middle of a park, along the main road, that can be made to show upcomming community events. Now do you really think for a minuete, that this railroad, cares about how nosy they are, or how long they block the main road in town, waiting to get across the NS at Vickers. Heck no they dont, I know I deal with it on a daily basis. The only reason they donate the money and equipment to these towns, it to keep people quiet, and happy, I can say that if no one complained, I dbought that CSX would be giving them stuff. Now it may sound like I am just picking on CSX, but I am just using examples that I know of, and work with on a daily basis. This happens all over this country. This is also kind of akin to UP and there heratige locos. The only reason they painted them up, was to protect there coppyrights, on the old reporting marks, and likeness. These wernt painted to honnor the employes that worked on the former lines, and it deffinatly wasent for public relations. All it was was a spin on having to protect coppyright laws. Well as far as us "railfans" policing our selves, we should and we should all be doing it. I mean look at all the places we used to be able to go to and stand around to watch trains, on railroad property, where the railroad, both officals and railroad police, turned a blind eye, as long as we behaved, and did not do anythig stupid to harm ourselves. All that is gone. And who do we have to blame except our selves. If we dont police ourselves and pull those aside who tresspass, or do dangerous acts, then who will. I will tell you who the "railroad" and it will be by making more places we go off limits. It is up to ourselves to make our fellow railfans follow the rules, and behave, or else. I have twice now called in on, fellow railfans, after approaching them and saying hey quit doing that. We cant keep expecting to be able to do what we do, if people keep goofing it up for us. As far as nonrailfans, well that is up to them to keepthem selves out of harms way. As far as railfans calling in to report suspecous activity, do you know what is and isint suspicous, who is tresspassing and who isint. Alot of times railfans overreact to things because they think they know and they dont. Now this isint to say, that railfnans shouldent call in things that are wrong, or such stuff, just make sure you are sure. Now I dont have any degrees in anything, and the only experiance I have is what I aquired working for the railroad, and going places, and being around. Most of what I say is based on one little thing, that in my oppinon a whole lot of the world is missing now, and that is commin seince.

Unread post by **AARR** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:58 pm

Dang Matt...that's a very long response!

i995impalass · Unread post by **i995impalass** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:57 am

Nice responce guys,
I lean towards CSX now b/c i grew up in Comstock Park and would run to the West River or North Park Crossing when i heard that horn blast. Now i live in Sand Lake, and CSX is still my #1 even tho they dont run in CP anymore. Im really big into Ore operation now, mainly LS&I. Now i go to these train shows, and try to pick up as much of ore operation items i can get my hands on, CNW, DSS&A, LS&I, SOO. And when i find (like i did last year at Lansing) C&O ore cars, i tell my self "well its not the Upper MI but it will be cool to have". So i buy them with the intention of running them as extras to fill my yards as a sence. Well the locos im looking for are U-boats, and i keep finding CSX U-28b's, and i tell myself, well ill get them and paint them. WRong. I get everything home and start running it and somthing clicks in me and bottom line is my 4x8 layouts based off the Turtle Creek in MR, isent a LS&I like i wanted it its a CSX ore layout set in the UP. So its like everyone says its what town you grew up in, or what rolling stock they use, or mabe its the paint on the locos. I still like all train no matter what, but CSX still gets me everytime. I would say if you dont know what you #1 is, if you have a train set, or train photos, or what you even catch yourself looking up on the internet all the time, see what road(s) you have the most pics, cars, whatever on and that might tell you. Like my train layout host things from CSX mostly, but also GTW, NS, SOO, LS&I, CN, UP. They might just be like a car or two, but still what i find i have the most cars, locos, and pics of is CSX.

To the whole cutting of trees on NS property, thats just it its NS property. to the LGB car in GR people dont realize what rolls down the roads around there house in semis, just b/c its parked and the jackass can see its got a flammable plate on the side, he thinks somebodys going to blow it up. i roll my eyes at that guy

~chris

esprrfan · Unread post by **esprrfan** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:33 pm

Here's my .02 worth for a few of your observations:

"These are company's whose owners are primarily interested in making money.. and probably little else.. that's probably too much of a generalization and more applies to the class 1 railroads, and not as much to some of the local shorelines, but I bet its not too far off in most cases."

If you owned your own business what would your "primary interest" be?

All companies HAVE to make money to exist from CSX, NS to Ford, GM to Model train manufactures and even down to you if you have ever sold anything. Even if only as a kid cutting a lawn for $10.00, you had no interest in making the lawn look good you just wanted the money. This is just the way the world is.

"less concern for citizens who have adjacent properties"

So because I CHOSE to buy or build next to the tracks I should now EXPECT the railroad not to use them now? These are the same type of people who then will move into a house next to a airport and complain about airplane noise.

While I agree railroads do have responsibilities to the towns they pass through. Just as the citizens who CHOOSE to live that close. Sadly in today's world the notion of that we are largely responsible for ourselves is lost. That's why you see lawsuits like "I ordered HOT coffee, then I spilled it on MYSELF burning me. But it's the fault of the fast food place because they didn't tell me the HOT coffee I ORDERED was hot.

As for the fans "secret police" I feel its always better for us to "police" ourselves as a group. Otherwise if crews report our actions we all know what actions the rr police take. For example I was rounding a blind curve on a high/wide train and a buff was standing in the ballast near a crossing with one leg of his tripod in the gauge off the #2 main I merely opened the window and let him know he needed to get away from the tracks (I knew a w/b was close to entering the curve coming right at him). The buff gave me the finger and told me "its a public street" I guess he figured that the nearness of the crossing gave him permission to be in the gauge of the tracks. So I warned the oncoming train to make extra noise then I contacted the NS police.

I only felt bad for the other fans that were near there because when the NSP show up they'll toss everyone out, even though they were well back some were still parked on the service road next to the mains in a little opening. Its that type of "fan" that gets areas to be enforced more as off limits

like I said be all this is just my thoughts of your questions, I hope I didn't offend anyone.

DS

CAT345C · Unread post by **CAT345C** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:47 pm

Heres my stance being a teenager, and most of the time its people my age doing stupid stuff, Railfans acting as a police force can be a great thing AS LONG as they are doing it quitely for instance calling the real Po Po when something is happing on RR Property. Railfans know a lot of the danagers that most civilians do not know about, like how even if you have a huge pickp up truck that locomotive could still take you out. As far as supporting the railroad, Matt is right 99% of the time the railroad is grandfathered in by the government, its like in Detriot when the Government took part of High Land Park? for a I696 extension. People don't own their land even though they pay for it, the government can take it but only if they give you market value for it. I faced this promblem many times at my Tech school, which was built in the 1970s, a developer put a condo complex next door, and some were built along the 15 acre operating field, the developer came an asked the school, when the construction was going to be finished so he could sell his condos. It has gotten to the point where the people in the condos call the police if the back up alarm sounds on a dozer, or if we drive to fast or have the throttel up to high on one of the machines. Its the grand father effect and thats the way 95% of the courts will see it.

Justin · Unread post by **Justin** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:36 pm

Here is my stance on railfanning, I am not quite the usual railfan meaning that I don't have a scanner or a nice digital camera. My last railfan trip I took my pictures with a disposible camera and I had to guess on when a train was coming. Now I mean no harm by this as I think it is cool that others know all this stuff about the trains, its their hobby and I respect that. I like to railfan because I just like to watch the trains and hear all the sounds. Call me weird but the sounds of a train are like music to my ears and I have made, similar to videos, recordings of trains. But I like the anticipation of waiting for a train. You always have that exitment of when the next train will come and then it goes through and then your exitment goes away ready for the next train. Now I do like to take pictures of trains when I have the camera because it is nice to look at a picture of a train.

As far as defending the railroads I have to say that I agree with some of you guys and you make some important points. I was always undre the impreession that the railroads did no wrong or hardly did wrong. Now I did my research and found that nobody is always right and this includes the railroads. It just depends on the situation. One thing I will say is that the railroads are right when it comes to crossings. The driver if they lived always says that it was the railroads fault and that they couldn't see the crossing signals yet 99% of the time you can see the crossing and it was functional. Like I said it depends on the situation. More people need to focus on the situation before they start blaming others.

Those are just some thoughts that came to mind and no offense to anybody intended.

CAT345C · Unread post by **CAT345C** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:59 pm

Thats a great Point Justin, and why I try to make it a point to shoot one shot, wave as the engine passes, and take an away shot if I like. I don't think they will ever be a day where I will not want to see a train, wether I have a camera, scanner or anything else, trains also relax me, I get heated real easly and trains cool me off.

E · Unread post by E » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:19 pm

If you owned your own business what would your "primary interest" be?

All companies HAVE to make money to exist from CSX, NS to Ford, GM to Model train manufactures and even down to you if you have ever sold anything. Even if only as a kid cutting a lawn for $10.00, you had no interest in making the lawn look good you just wanted the money. This is just the way the world is.

My point here.. was not that Railroads are bad because they want to make money.. . My point here is that Railroads are not these heroic operations bravely shipping around freight for the good of mankind.. They serve a purpose and in most cases it's a good one.. But it's a buisness.... certainly not deserving of any kind of particular devotion.. which some of this railfanning borders on I feel.

So because I CHOSE to buy or build next to the tracks I should now EXPECT the railroad not to use them now? These are the same type of people who then will move into a house next to a airport and complain about airplane noise.

While I agree railroads do have responsibilities to the towns they pass through. Just as the citizens who CHOOSE to live that close. Sadly in today's world the notion of that we are largely responsible for ourselves is lost. That's why you see lawsuits like "I ordered HOT coffee, then I spilled it on MYSELF burning me. But it's the fault of the fast food place because they didn't tell me the HOT coffee I ORDERED was hot.

Again.. Never said here that I think that these railroads should not use the rails that pass through these properties.. but what they need to Do.. and im not saying that dont in all cases.. but Its important that the Railroads consider that these people are their neighbors.. and that there feelings and thoughts should be important to them.. and be willing to accomadate them when possible.. and of course this can go both ways... But this is the principal that community is based on.

As for the fans "secret police" I feel its always better for us to "police" ourselves as a group. Otherwise if crews report our actions we all know what actions the rr police take. For example I was rounding a blind curve on a high/wide train and a buff was standing in the ballast near a crossing with one leg of his tripod in the gauge off the #2 main I merely opened the window and let him know he needed to get away from the tracks (I knew a w/b was close to entering the curve coming right at him). The buff gave me the finger and told me "its a public street" I guess he figured that the nearness of the crossing gave him permission to be in the gauge of the tracks. So I warned the oncoming train to make extra noise then I contacted the NS police.

Ok.. yeah.. telling somone that an oncoming train is near so they don't get hit is just the right thing to do.. But im guessing this guy.. if he was there to take pictures of trains.. that he would be smart enough to know the sound of an oncoming train and be able to get out of the way.. Calling the NS police cuz a guy has his tripod leg in the gauge.. Give me a break.. I would confront somone if I saw them vandalizing Track or messing with switches that could cause derailment which is pretty serious.. and contact some authority if they wouldnt listen.. but other then some extreme case.. its not my job.. or do I care to play the role of survaillence for the railroads.. i guess its your buisness what you do.. but it seem pretty silly to me..

But anways.. Thanks for all your responces.. Many of you provided me with some good insight.
-E

CAT345C · Unread post by **CAT345C** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:22 pm

Well I can see a lot more clearly after the first part, I started a Landscaping company when I was 14, now I'm 17, and was able to gross 2760$ this summer, but most people are skeptic about my work, I have to work very hard, to make people proud of my work, so word gets around that I have talent in what I do. Even though 10 dollars an hour may seem like a lot to me now, its not when I have a truck bill, insurance, mortgage and a family.

Railroads have been around for a while, and have little threat to new competition like Ford and GM do with Honda, and Nissian. So they do not need to work as hard to retain a good quality name. Its all a monopoly in my opinion.

esprrfan · Unread post by **esprrfan** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:56 pm

"Calling the NS police cuz a guy has his tripod leg in the gauge.. Give me a break.. "

Actually I called him in to avoid putting other crew's in the postion of having hit someone. I wouldn't want that feeling placed on anyone. As for the buff I could give a rat's behind about him. He put himself in that postion, crewmembers don't have that choice.

Few other points to consider is, standing that close to a train moving at 50 isn't exactly quiet and it would be easy to belive the horns your hearing from behind you are merely the horn of the train going by you when infact its another train thats coming at your back.

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comments about railfanning in general

comments about railfanning in general