Grand Rapids area 2013 flood

[Saturnalia]

So the Grand Rapids Press ran a big feature on the 5th talking about "Rising Concern" and "Inches from Disaster" with the April Flood. One of the main "concerns" were the parked railcars. They wrote this:

In offices near GR Ford Intl airport, NWS team believed the area had ridden out the worst of the flooding threat. Then they saw a picture of train cars parked on a trestle. If that bridge had failed and the train cars had dammed the river, it would have sent water levels soaring upstream, likely breaching the floodwalls and spilling into downtown and the City's West Side.

[J T]

If that bridge had failed and the train cars had dammed the river, it would have sent water levels soaring upstream, likely breaching the floodwalls and spilling into downtown and the City's West Side

[trnwatcher]

Apparently whoever they spoke to at the NWS has no clue as to WHY those cars where parked there. It was to keep the bridge from washing out. Railroads have been doing this for more than a century. Yes they lose a few cars now and then, but they save way more bridges then they lose. I see the brain trust at the GR Press never bothered to get a statement from CSX, the mayor of GR's office or the emergency management team that was activated to deal with the issues that arose from the flooding. I used to call the GR Press an "ultra-conservative rag". Now it's just more useless digital drivel.

Nice choice of pic there JT. You da MAN!

[Standard Railfan]

What I was concerned about was what the heck was in those covered hoppers. IIRC they were from Oxy in Ludington. Not the best choice, but probably what was available.

[CAT345C]

What I was concerned about was what the heck was in those covered hoppers. IIRC they were from Oxy in Ludington. Not the best choice, but probably what was available.

Well yea if you park CSX sand cars on the bridge then when it washes out they would have a nice beach....lets park the Oxy owned calcium cloride cars on the bridge...

[12Bridge]

Covered Hoppers float.

[LSRC]

And do you have personal experience with that, 12Bridge? Haha

[Saturnalia]

I can imagine empty CHs would float for at least a little while until they slowly sank as water seeped in. I always like finding the cars that have a "open roof hatches before unloading car" stencil, and imagining how they found that out the first time!

[CAT345C]

Those Oxy cars have different hatches than most covered hoppers. They are like port holes and use bolts so they can be water tight. The product they haul.....basically driveway salt doesn't do well with water.

[CSX_CO]

They are like port holes and use bolts so they can be water tight. The product they haul.....basically driveway salt doesn't do well with water.

I can imagine empty CHs would float for at least a little while until they slowly sank as water seeped in. I always like finding the cars that have a "open roof hatches before unloading car" stencil, and imagining how they found that out the first time!

If they weren't air tight/water tight, then they wouldn't need that warning to open the hopper hatches before unloading would they?

Practice Safe CSX

[brysonda]

Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?

[Jetlink]

Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?

On hopper bottom grain trucks you need to un tarp the top of the truck before opening the unload doors on the hoppers or you can rip the tarp to shreds. Probably a very similar principal. I would assume sidewall or roof sheet wrinkling or suck-in type failure could occur. Maybe someone on this board has first hand embarassing stories to share.

[CSX_CO]

Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?

On hopper bottom grain trucks you need to un tarp the top of the truck before opening the unload doors on the hoppers or you can rip the tarp to shreds. Probably a very similar principal. I would assume sidewall or roof sheet wrinkling or suck-in type failure could occur. Maybe someone on this board has first hand embarassing stories to share.

I've seen photos of tank cars that were in the process of being cleaned with steam, filled with steam, then sealed up before the steam had a chance to condense. When it did, it crumpled the sides like a tin can.

Can't say I've seen the same with covered hoppers. I would imagine most products would stop 'flowing' before the car imploded (sort like your gas can if you don't open the vent), unless like a pressure-aide type hopper where there is some movement of air to help the car unload.

Practice Safe CSX

[JoJames]

Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?

On hopper bottom grain trucks you need to un tarp the top of the truck before opening the unload doors on the hoppers or you can rip the tarp to shreds. Probably a very similar principal. I would assume sidewall or roof sheet wrinkling or suck-in type failure could occur. Maybe someone on this board has first hand embarassing stories to share.

I've seen photos of tank cars that were in the process of being cleaned with steam, filled with steam, then sealed up before the steam had a chance to condense. When it did, it crumpled the sides like a tin can.

Can't say I've seen the same with covered hoppers. I would imagine most products would stop 'flowing' before the car imploded (sort like your gas can if you don't open the vent), unless like a pressure-aide type hopper where there is some movement of air to help the car unload.

Practice Safe CSX

Have unloaded lots of tarped grain trailers without the tarp being removed and never had any problems

[Jetlink]

Have unloaded lots of tarped grain trailers without the tarp being removed and never had any problems

I have too. Hundreds of times. Then there was this one time when it didn't go well. I wasn't the most popular person at the farm that day. My dad had told me for years that's what would happen.I didn't believe him. The old man was right.

[JStryker722]

Have unloaded lots of tarped grain trailers without the tarp being removed and never had any problems

I have too. Hundreds of times. Then there was this one time when it didn't go well. I wasn't the most popular person at the farm that day. My dad had told me for years that's what would happen.I didn't believe him. The old man was right.

Haha darn science lol

[CAT345C]

If they weren't air tight/water tight, then they wouldn't need that warning to open the hopper hatches before unloading would they?

Practice Safe CSX

The Oxy cars ARE water tight, grain cars are not. Look at the top of a grain car they have a couple hinges and very few clasps to hold the hatches down. The oxy cars have port holes that are closed tight with bolts just like a tank car hatch.

This is a water tight covered hopper exactly like the OXY cars


This is a standard covered hopper hatch:

No way are those hatches water tight, they will limit water from entering the car but that style of a hatch is going to allow moisture in.

[Standard Railfan]

No matter the hatch, a string of loaded hoppers full of "stuff" getting dragged into the Grand River from a collapsing bridge would undoubtably breech spilling tons of "stuff" into the river and CSX would have gotten the bill to clean up the river....

If it were me, I would have used frac sand, stone, or steel.

[Saturnalia]

If we hang onto the cold air well into March (peak ice on the Great Lakes may not come until the 2nd week of March if the cold lasts) and hold a decent snow cover over frozen ground, the chance of a sudden warm-up and significant flood will increase. Remember, the major floods on the Grand River have come in pairs (1904. 1905 and 1947, 1948…so, 2013 and 2014?).

I looked at the two years we had the big tornadoes in the G.R. area, 1956 (Standale) and 1965 (Palm Sunday). In 1964-65 we had over 100″ of snow for the winter, including 36″ in March. That March was also the 4th coldest March ever in G.R. In 1956, March was 3.8° colder than average with over 11″ of snow. In 1956, we had a wet spring with 4.39″ of precipitation in March and 6.49″ in April.

Interesting climate notes by WOOD 8's Chief Meteorologist. Obviously nothing is certain, but...