GR Press wrote:In offices near GR Ford Intl airport, NWS team believed the area had ridden out the worst of the flooding threat. Then they saw a picture of train cars parked on a trestle. If that bridge had failed and the train cars had dammed the river, it would have sent water levels soaring upstream, likely breaching the floodwalls and spilling into downtown and the City's West Side.
Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
- Saturnalia
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
So the Grand Rapids Press ran a big feature on the 5th talking about "Rising Concern" and "Inches from Disaster" with the April Flood. One of the main "concerns" were the parked railcars. They wrote this:
Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
GR Press wrote:If that bridge had failed and the train cars had dammed the river, it would have sent water levels soaring upstream, likely breaching the floodwalls and spilling into downtown and the City's West Side
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- trnwatcher
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
Apparently whoever they spoke to at the NWS has no clue as to WHY those cars where parked there. It was to keep the bridge from washing out. Railroads have been doing this for more than a century. Yes they lose a few cars now and then, but they save way more bridges then they lose. I see the brain trust at the GR Press never bothered to get a statement from CSX, the mayor of GR's office or the emergency management team that was activated to deal with the issues that arose from the flooding. I used to call the GR Press an "ultra-conservative rag". Now it's just more useless digital drivel.
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- Standard Railfan
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
What I was concerned about was what the heck was in those covered hoppers. IIRC they were from Oxy in Ludington. Not the best choice, but probably what was available.
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
Well yea if you park CSX sand cars on the bridge then when it washes out they would have a nice beach....lets park the Oxy owned calcium cloride cars on the bridge...Standard Railfan wrote:What I was concerned about was what the heck was in those covered hoppers. IIRC they were from Oxy in Ludington. Not the best choice, but probably what was available.
Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
Covered Hoppers float. ![Very Happy :D](https://mail.railroadfan.com/phpbb/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
And do you have personal experience with that, 12Bridge? Haha
- Saturnalia
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
I can imagine empty CHs would float for at least a little while until they slowly sank as water seeped in. I always like finding the cars that have a "open roof hatches before unloading car" stencil, and imagining how they found that out the first time! ![Laughing :lol:](https://mail.railroadfan.com/phpbb/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
Those Oxy cars have different hatches than most covered hoppers. They are like port holes and use bolts so they can be water tight. The product they haul.....basically driveway salt doesn't do well with water.
Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
CAT345C wrote:They are like port holes and use bolts so they can be water tight. The product they haul.....basically driveway salt doesn't do well with water.
If they weren't air tight/water tight, then they wouldn't need that warning to open the hopper hatches before unloading would they?MQT3001 wrote:I can imagine empty CHs would float for at least a little while until they slowly sank as water seeped in. I always like finding the cars that have a "open roof hatches before unloading car" stencil, and imagining how they found that out the first time!
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
On hopper bottom grain trucks you need to un tarp the top of the truck before opening the unload doors on the hoppers or you can rip the tarp to shreds. Probably a very similar principal. I would assume sidewall or roof sheet wrinkling or suck-in type failure could occur. Maybe someone on this board has first hand embarassing stories to share.brysonda wrote:Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
I've seen photos of tank cars that were in the process of being cleaned with steam, filled with steam, then sealed up before the steam had a chance to condense. When it did, it crumpled the sides like a tin can.Jetlink Driver wrote:On hopper bottom grain trucks you need to un tarp the top of the truck before opening the unload doors on the hoppers or you can rip the tarp to shreds. Probably a very similar principal. I would assume sidewall or roof sheet wrinkling or suck-in type failure could occur. Maybe someone on this board has first hand embarassing stories to share.brysonda wrote:Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?
Can't say I've seen the same with covered hoppers. I would imagine most products would stop 'flowing' before the car imploded (sort like your gas can if you don't open the vent), unless like a pressure-aide type hopper where there is some movement of air to help the car unload.
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
CSX_CO wrote:I've seen photos of tank cars that were in the process of being cleaned with steam, filled with steam, then sealed up before the steam had a chance to condense. When it did, it crumpled the sides like a tin can.Jetlink Driver wrote:On hopper bottom grain trucks you need to un tarp the top of the truck before opening the unload doors on the hoppers or you can rip the tarp to shreds. Probably a very similar principal. I would assume sidewall or roof sheet wrinkling or suck-in type failure could occur. Maybe someone on this board has first hand embarassing stories to share.brysonda wrote:Would failing to open to top hatches simply cause slow unloading, or would it lead to physical damage? i.e. would the side walls collapse in due to negative pressure?
Can't say I've seen the same with covered hoppers. I would imagine most products would stop 'flowing' before the car imploded (sort like your gas can if you don't open the vent), unless like a pressure-aide type hopper where there is some movement of air to help the car unload.
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Have unloaded lots of tarped grain trailers without the tarp being removed and never had any problems
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
I have too. Hundreds of times. Then there was this one time when it didn't go well. I wasn't the most popular person at the farm that day. My dad had told me for years that's what would happen.I didn't believe him. The old man was right.JoJames wrote:
Have unloaded lots of tarped grain trailers without the tarp being removed and never had any problems
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
Haha darn science lolJetlink Driver wrote:I have too. Hundreds of times. Then there was this one time when it didn't go well. I wasn't the most popular person at the farm that day. My dad had told me for years that's what would happen.I didn't believe him. The old man was right.JoJames wrote:
Have unloaded lots of tarped grain trailers without the tarp being removed and never had any problems
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
The Oxy cars ARE water tight, grain cars are not. Look at the top of a grain car they have a couple hinges and very few clasps to hold the hatches down. The oxy cars have port holes that are closed tight with bolts just like a tank car hatch.CSX_CO wrote:
If they weren't air tight/water tight, then they wouldn't need that warning to open the hopper hatches before unloading would they?
Practice Safe CSX
This is a water tight covered hopper exactly like the OXY cars
![Image](http://lionelllc.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/plastics-car.jpg)
This is a standard covered hopper hatch:
![Image](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3411/3637690433_03f4e55c7c_z.jpg)
No way are those hatches water tight, they will limit water from entering the car but that style of a hatch is going to allow moisture in.
- Standard Railfan
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
No matter the hatch, a string of loaded hoppers full of "stuff" getting dragged into the Grand River from a collapsing bridge would undoubtably breech spilling tons of "stuff" into the river and CSX would have gotten the bill to clean up the river....
If it were me, I would have used frac sand, stone, or steel.
If it were me, I would have used frac sand, stone, or steel.
- Saturnalia
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Re: Grand Rapids area 2013 flood
Interesting climate notes by WOOD 8's Chief Meteorologist. Obviously nothing is certain, but...Bill Steffen wrote:If we hang onto the cold air well into March (peak ice on the Great Lakes may not come until the 2nd week of March if the cold lasts) and hold a decent snow cover over frozen ground, the chance of a sudden warm-up and significant flood will increase. Remember, the major floods on the Grand River have come in pairs (1904. 1905 and 1947, 1948…so, 2013 and 2014?).
I looked at the two years we had the big tornadoes in the G.R. area, 1956 (Standale) and 1965 (Palm Sunday). In 1964-65 we had over 100″ of snow for the winter, including 36″ in March. That March was also the 4th coldest March ever in G.R. In 1956, March was 3.8° colder than average with over 11″ of snow. In 1956, we had a wet spring with 4.39″ of precipitation in March and 6.49″ in April.