Resort Northern Arrow

[Todd Cline]

Or should it be called the "One percenter special"? Hey, I'm all for a rail tour, even more so in our great state of Michigans "North Country". But $1899.00-$3399.00 PER PERSON????????? Yes, I realize these trips are from Chicago/St. Louis, (Amtrak 90% of the way though), but how about us locals? I'm just glad I rode the Lake Central trips when I did. Not sure why they quit, but it probably had something to do with insane insurance requirements. At least those trips fit in with the average joes budget. Something tells me that some top insurance executives will be on board this "High-Roller-Express". I guess that's the way it is these days..... I know I can't afford riding my beloved G.R.& I. anymore. I spend too much money on my insurance premiums! Well, I guess my money is riding those rails in some perverse, indirect way... I don't know how, but I sure wish someone would bring back some affordable excursions. I'd settle for a folding lawn chair in a gondola for cryin' 'out loud! No need for all that First-Class, "Hoidy-Toidy" stuff here! Just a nice trip on a nice rail line. That's all I'm asking for. Nuf' Said....

Todd

[Raildudes dad]

This really isn't a "public" excursion. These cars are privately owned and most have family, friends or business associates as "non paying" passengers. Both American Rail Excursions and Cincinnati Railway will sell the "public" a seat on their cars so the rest us us can experience the luxury of private car ownership that we cannot afford and can only dream about.

The cars do not operate as an excursion train. Private car passenger etiquette dictates you do not enter the adjacent car unless invited by the owner / occupant. The conductor (if he chooses to ride the consist) and train-master are the only people that can walk from one end of the train to the other as needed.

I was very very fortunate to be the SB conductor on the first 2 Northern Arrows a few years ago . It was a very memorable experience.

As for affordable excursions, SRI still does a few per year on the GLC. http://michigansteamtrain.com/sri/tickets/

Lake Central Tours shut down for a number of reasons but the biggest one was the downturn of the economy which really impacted SE MI (where a lot of their passengers lived and worked). Not enough people buying tickets to break even, let alone make a profit.

[CSX_CO]

Or should it be called the "One percenter special"? Hey, I'm all for a rail tour, even more so in our great state of Michigans "North Country". But $1899.00-$3399.00 PER PERSON?????????

Really not much more than a trip to Disney World when you factor in all the costs.

Practice Safe CSX

[J T]

Really not much more than a trip to Disney World when you factor in all the costs.

Because being stuck on a train in the midwest for several days is a fair comparison to going to Disney World.

[Todd Cline]

I'd choose the train over Disney anytime! But, as I said earlier. Just too rich for my blood! My next door neighbors are taking Amtrak to California this fall, round trip, sleeper acc. and all, for less that this trip!

Todd

[SD80MAC]

I don't know, even long distance Amtrak can be borderline ridiculous. When I took the Southwest Chief to LA this past spring, my ticket was north of $500, and that was only one way and booking a few months in advance, for 1 person! I don't even want to think how much roundtrip would be with more than 1 person.

[CSX_CO]

I'd choose the train over Disney anytime! But, as I said earlier. Just too rich for my blood! My next door neighbors are taking Amtrak to California this fall, round trip, sleeper acc. and all, for less that this trip!

Todd

Yeah, but you won't be getting wined and dined on AMTRAK like you would be on this trip.

Considering the costs to go on vacations elsewhere, its not that unreasonable. Plus, if you're into private passenger cars and rare mileage trips, then it is money well spent. After all, they only charge what the market will bear, and I somehow don't think they want your typical foamer with UP T-shirt, gut hanging out, scanner clipped to his belt, fanny pack, and flip flops with tall socks on the train.

Practice Safe CSX

[MagnumForce]

People spend 80 bucks for an HO scale passenger car. I hardly think 2 grand for an extremely nice vacation is exhorbitant.

[Saturnalia]

Don't forget about how much those railcars cost! And the locomotive(s), and the fuel, and the insurance........


Airlines will fly you for a couple hundred bucks from Grand Rapids to Phoenix. In their million-dollar aircraft, filled with several thosand gallons of expensive go-go juice, in just a few hours. Or, you can jump in your car, pay 50-100 cents per mile on average, for the 2000+ mile, several day ride to Phoenix. And don't forget the hotels......

Transportation has overhead....and a lot of it. That's why it is "expensive"

[AARR]

The cars do not operate as an excursion train. Private car passenger etiquette dictates you do not enter the adjacent car unless invited by the owner / occupant. The conductor (if he chooses to ride the consist) and train-master are the only people that can walk from one end of the train to the other as needed.

So have you walked in on anything interesting

[CSX_CO]

50 to 100 cents a mile? What the hell you driving? A destroyer?

My Honda civic gets 40 MPG per gallon on the high uway. That's 10 cents a mile

[Raildudes dad]

50 to 100 cents a mile? What the hell you driving? A destroyer?

My Honda civic gets 40 MPG per gallon on the high uway. That's 10 cents a mile

All depends on how you figure your cost (just like John Mica ) $0. 10 cent / mile is your direct fuel cost. Cost of the car? Replacement vehicle? Insurance? repairs?

That's why I don't think much of $16 burger claim. I'd like to see how they came up with the $16 before I make judgement.

[CSX_CO]

I've had my truck 7 years. Between cost of truck insurance oil changes tires etc I'm at $.30per mile to operate. Not including gas which would average $.15 pet mile over the last 7 years.

[Saturnalia]

50 to 100 cents a mile? What the hell you driving? A destroyer?

My Honda civic gets 40 MPG per gallon on the high uway. That's 10 cents a mile

All depends on how you figure your cost (just like John Mica ) $0. 10 cent / mile is your direct fuel cost. Cost of the car? Replacement vehicle? Insurance? repairs?

I was figuring in the hotel because hardly anyone drives 2,000 miles without staying in a hotel. I also added in food, cause I'm not going to last that long.

My point was the several hundred dollar airfare/trainfare is actually cheaper than driving most of the time over long distances.

[CSX_CO]

I was figuring in the hotel because hardly anyone drives 2,000 miles without staying in a hotel. I also added in food, cause I'm not going to last that long.

Your post said "don't forget hotels" so you weren't factoring in the cost in your equation. Nice try though. Plus you're going to need food irregardless of what method of travel you take. The plane may get you there faster, but you are still going to eat. Last time I looked, it was $450 for a decent sized sleeper on an AMTRAK train for 1 night and 2 people (Chicago-Denver). I can get a flea bag motel for $60, and a Holiday Inn Express for $140. If your trip is 7 days start to finish, your probably not going to be skipping any meals just because you're on a train or a plane, and you're still going to need hotels on those nights unless you plan to sleep on a park bench. So, you can take those costs out of your equation because they are going to be incurred no matter what method of travel you take.

My point was the several hundred dollar airfare/trainfare is actually cheaper than driving most of the time over long distances.

Annnnnddd the reason that is kid? Wait for it... Its affordable because its HEAVILY SUBSIDIZED. Driving by road (if you consider the taxes you pay) means the person traveling bears more of the cost of the travel. Gas taxes (when you buy gas) go to maintain the road, any tolls paid maintain the road, and gas YOU bought physically moves YOU. The driver is paying for wear and tear on their vehicle. That's why I wish every interstate in this country was a toll road, those who use it, pay to keep it up. That way, my Gas Taxes aren't going to add another lane to the I-5 in California.

So, the average American couldn't afford to fly if they were forced to fully cover the costs of operating that plane. My tax dollars go to maintain the FRA and the air traffic control network. My tax dollars helped build the new Indianapolis airport. My tax dollars helped INDOT move I-70 south for runway expansion, etc. If the airport commission and to recoup their costs through the service they provide, no one could afford to fly. Ditto for AMTRAK.

Because the entire thing is so heavily subsidized that is why flying is cheaper than driving. And, flying is only cheaper than driving if you book far enough in advance. If I wanted to get to Atlanta by tomorrow morning, its going to run me $235 to do it (Airtran.com with its 7:59 pm flight to Atlanta from Indy). Should coach sell out, it would be $376 to get on that plane in Business Class. Now, it is an 8 hr drive, ~600 miles, so I could do that for ~$140 in gas in my truck (20 mpg and a 35 gallon tank at $4.00 a gallon). I'd still need a hotel in Atlanta, so that cost is moot. If I fly I'd need transportation down there, so I do need to factor that cost in. So, is my 8 hrs of drive time worth the $260 to $400 (including rental) extra I'd spend? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. And, actually, considering time to head to airport, get through security, fly, get out of Atlanta's airport, and to the north side where I usually stay, is *usually* a 4 to 5 hr trip. So I'm only saving 3 hrs.

If I book a week out, its $130 one way. Its going to be $130 for me if 10 people get on it, or 100. The plane goes if there are people on it or not, and if they make money on it or not. So, when that plane leaves and is losing money, someone has to make up for that plane that is losing money.

If you want AMTRAK 'privatized' then I suggest you ask for the airlines to be *fully* privatized too. Good luck affording a flight, if they stay in business very long...

So, along with this, and the $16.00 hamburger thread, some things NEED to be privatized. The things that are run by the Government, and *could* turn a profit, why isn't the Government running them to make a profit then? If the Northern Arrow needs to charge what they charge to cover costs, and make a profit, so be it. If you can't afford to go on it, then save your nickels and dimes. At least they are running 'for profit' and aren't being subsidized by my tax dollars.

Practice Safe CSX

[AARR]

So, along with this, and the $16.00 hamburger thread, some things NEED to be privatized. The things that are run by the Government, and *could* turn a profit, why isn't the Government running them to make a profit then?

Lots of good info there CSX but you brought up something Ive been looking for an opportunity to comment on.

One of Amtraks arguements (as is the US Postal system) is that they have to keep the profitable lines to offset the unprofitable lines they are forced to operate. For example, Amtrak makes a profit (although does not necessarily cover its operating costs...but thats another post for another time) its northeast corridor lines. But the are forced to operate at a loss (and even privitizing will not help) its long-distance trains. So Amtrak says if they take away the northeast corridor (which they have started privitizing) it will jeapordize the long-distance trains.

I dont have answers just wanted to point out the dilemma Amtrak faces.

[CSX_CO]

I dont have answers just wanted to point out the dilemma Amtrak faces.

My argument on that stems from the State of Indiana leasing the Indiana Toll Road to an investment group. Investment group wouldn't invest, if they didn't think they could run it at a profit. So...if an outside group can run it at a profit, why can't the State?

So, in the case of AMTRAK food service, if it were privatized as MQT wants (and thus run at a profit) why can't AMTRAK run it (food service) at a profit? As far as long distance passenger service, as been stated elsewhere, its impossible to expect it to run at a profit.

Practice Safe CSX

[J T]

I was figuring in the hotel because hardly anyone drives 2,000 miles without staying in a hotel. I also added in food, cause I'm not going to last that long.

Your post said "don't forget hotels" so you weren't factoring in the cost in your equation. Nice try though. Plus you're going to need food regardless of what method of travel you take. The plane may get you there faster, but you are still going to eat. Last time I looked, it was $450 for a decent sized sleeper on an AMTRAK train for 1 night and 2 people (Chicago-Denver). I can get a flea bag motel for $60, and a Holiday Inn Express for $140. If your trip is 7 days start to finish, your probably not going to be skipping any meals just because you're on a train or a plane, and you're still going to need hotels on those nights unless you plan to sleep on a park bench. So, you can take those costs out of your equation because they are going to be incurred no matter what method of travel you take.

Don't forget to factor in the price of a rental car after you've reached your destination by rail or air. Also, if you want to save money on food, go to the store and buy lunch meat, fruit and vegetables, stuff that you'd normally eat while home, and pack them in a cooler. You'll save a lot of money that way instead of eating out on a trip.

And Russ, I fixed the word you used that doesn't exist in the English language.

[Saturnalia]

I dont have answers just wanted to point out the dilemma Amtrak faces.

My argument on that stems from the State of Indiana leasing the Indiana Toll Road to an investment group. Investment group wouldn't invest, if they didn't think they could run it at a profit. So...if an outside group can run it at a profit, why can't the State?

So, in the case of AMTRAK food service, if it were privatized as MQT wants (and thus run at a profit) why can't AMTRAK run it (food service) at a profit? As far as long distance passenger service, as been stated elsewhere, its impossible to expect it to run at a profit.

Practice Safe CSX

NOTHING government runs will make a profit because of the beaurracracy. Amtrak Food service won't because of the government overhead. There are simply too many assets and too many people for the service to make a profit. It won't get fixed because the people running it would be fired if they tried to make it profitable, because their jobs would be unnessassary. Private enterprise would cut the people and general overhead for efficiency, and would then spend less money. Government beaurocrats make sure there job and their friends jobs doesn't go away, so overhead never gets smaller. Costs go up, and you know the rest

[MagnumForce]

While flying or riding the train COULD be cheaper for one person, something I have not found in my experience. Add a second person to the vehicle and that is not the case. Driving then becomes far cheaper, factor in a need to rent a car when you get where you are going because unless you are going to a big city you have to have a car, and it becomes even more evident.