What-if? - Mack Bridge

[MIGN-Todd]

I don't know if any of you have given it much thought but, what if when they were building the Mackinaw Bridge they included rail and not just roadway? The entire bridge design would of course have to be changed as the present structure could in no way support such great weight but, if it had been included, how would it have changed the Rail systems of northern Michigan? Would the CSX still abandon the Petoskey sub? Or would it now be a good feeder line? Would GLC be running through freights from Mackinaw City south-bound? (This is what happens when I'm home sick and have nothing else to think of...)

[AARR]

IIRC rail was considered included in the bridge.

[MIGN-Todd]

I heard that they had given it some consideration but I do wonder what might have become of the northern most lines. CN coil cars out of Algoma or, taconite trains from the U.P. could have been commonplace on the Petoskey sub or GLC's northern division. People in this message board are losing all of their sense of imagination and wonder I think sometimes.....

[Ben Higdon]

I think the trackage over the straits would have survived into the early 90s or so before the rail connections began to retract to where they are today. Who knows though. Maybe CP would have bought or gotten trackage rights from Mackinaw City south to Chicago rather than over the CSX Plymouth Sub.

[GTWFRED]

I heard that they had given it some consideration but I do wonder what might have become of the northern most lines. CN coil cars out of Algoma or, taconite trains from the U.P. could have been commonplace on the Petoskey sub or GLC's northern division. People in this message board are losing all of their sense of imagination and wonder I think sometimes.....

Excellent question & 2nd post Todd! I've also wondered in the past. The Petoskey sub or GLC's north would all have been upgraded You could also toss in grain trains avoiding the "Chicago maze" Might even meant the demise of the great lake freighters (sadly). I am no means an engineer, but I thought they could have worked in a single track between N/S lanes, or even under the deck, with a little tweaking & more support, don't know if traffic would have justified a 2nd track. I remember taking the ferrys & seeing it partially built, in total awe at the time, doing what had never been done before, they probably thought what they got done was enough. This was only a pipe dream with me, and an excellent what if ? from Todd. Just think, the MIGN & the D&M might still be around, going strong!

[AARR]

I am no means an engineer, but I thought they could have worked in a single track between N/S lanes, or even under the deck, with a little tweaking & more support, don't know if traffic would have justified a 2nd track.

IIRC it was under the deck that they had proposed placing the railroad bridge.

[Raildudes dad]

If you read this book by Larry Rubin, we're lucky we got the bridge we did.

http://www.mackinacbridge.org/mackinac-bridge-books-29/

[MIGN-Todd]

GTWFred- I doubt the much-loved MIGN would've been around still as they and the State of Michigan did not see eye to eye on alot of things. I do believe that the D&M would be still chuggin' along though. I also thought of the frieghters and how it might have been cheaper to ship the Taconite by rail across the bridge. Ships are not cheap to operate and maintain nor is maintenance on those ore docks. Plus, the shipping lanes close when the ice becomes a problem- rail keeps rollin'. Who knows what would've happened though......

[GTWFRED]

GTWFred- I doubt the much-loved MIGN would've been around still as they and the State of Michigan did not see eye to eye on alot of things. I do believe that the D&M would be still chuggin' along though. I also thought of the frieghters and how it might have been cheaper to ship the Taconite by rail across the bridge. Ships are not cheap to operate and maintain nor is maintenance on those ore docks. Plus, the shipping lanes close when the ice becomes a problem- rail keeps rollin'. Who knows what would've happened though......

First off thanks also to AARR & Raildudes Dad. Mign-Todd, MIGN still being around as you say was doubtful, the state had a big target on their back (just a wishfull what if), but I seriously think D&M would be around. As for the freighters,..., I'm sure they could've found great lakes work somewhere. As for a bridge rail line, the whole landscape of the state would be quite different. As AARR stated, I remember they considered it, and as Raildudes Dad brought up, as it is we were lucky to get it. It was the original "bridge to nowhere", and a huge gamble. Once again excellent question my hats off to you, hope your getting better! The wifes calling so have a good one everybody!

[AARR]

IMO it would have been MIGN that got the business because D&M only acquired the railroad to Mackinaw City for the land. D&M wasn't interested in running a railroad to Mackinaw City. MIGN was very interested. So we'd see big time trains running between Mackinaw City and Grand Rapids

[Buster Manning]

When the bridge was built, the MN wasn't even a twinkle in your daddy's eye and the D&M only made it as far as Cheboygon; the PRR and the NYC were the players back then and whoever had the biggest presence probably would have been the prefered route south--which I'm guessing would have been the NYC as they had the 'better' route to the markets to the south and east of the the straits.

How would this have effected the ferries of the C&O and the AA??

[canpac08]

it would most likely have had an impact on the ferry services provided, but not sure how big because different carriers used the ferries across Lake Michigan then over the Straits of Mackinaw. My question what would have happened to the Soo Line, lines in St. Ignace ? Would any of the lines up there been sold off to the WC or would CP still have a strong presences in the U.P?

[Norm]

If I may borrow on the knowledge of a civil engineer who does not post here but does on the Trains Magazine forum I don't think there was ever serious consideration given when engineering the bridge to the weights of future trains when engineering the bridge. Back in 1957 trains were considerably lighter than those of today. Also, the bridge would have needed additional reinforcement to support their weight as well as the vehicles that were crossing. Building it to also allow railroads to cross the straights would have added millions to the cost but would not likely support the weight of today's trains. The trains of the fifties may have averaged 5,000 tons while those of today are 15,000 or higher.

Building the bridge to include trains of the day may have worked but would not have lasted into this century.

Just my opinion.

[Raildudes dad]

Yesterday's steam engines were as heavy or heavier than today's' locomotives. That's why not many RR bridges need strengthening for today's loads. With yards in Mackinaw and St Ignace, there would be no reason that more frequent 5000 ton trains couldn't be run across the Straits if the longer trains were an issue.

[esprrfan]

Well the NYC would keep it till PC ran it in the ground then Ann Arbor would of got control of it where they would of hooked up with WC to provide service up north. CN seeing this buys WC/AA for a route that bypasses Chicago for the eastcoast, after then bringing in the WLE they can ship ore to the mills year round

[MIGN-Todd]

Holy crap ESPRR- I think you may have something there...... Thank you by the way, that was pretty close to what I was looking for when I posted this.

[MSchwiebert]

If rail was to be included, I doubt that the bridge would have been a suspension bridge.For whatever reason rail use of suspension bridges is extremely uncommon - probably due to the loads and vibration (moreso with the pounding of a steam locomotive) that a train would introduce. As for "what" such a rail crossing would carry - that is a good question.

[dmitzel]

When the bridge was built, the MN wasn't even a twinkle in your daddy's eye and the D&M only made it as far as Cheboygan; the PRR and the NYC were the players back then and whoever had the biggest presence probably would have been the preferred route south--which I'm guessing would have been the NYC as they had the 'better' route to the markets to the south and east of the the straits.

How would this have effected the ferries of the C&O and the AA??

B.M. nailed this one - that the NYC and PRR Mackinaw routes would have been viable for much longer than they were, likely well past CR day (maybe NS now). Got a good chuckle too about MIGN and DM comments, as these roads would have never happened nor bought into the Straits if such a continuous mainline route had developed between the Twin Ports (Duluth-Superior) and lower Michigan.

I imagine that CR would have been operating much farther into the lower Peninsula, and either the DSS&A would have been kept by the NP (later BN) or SOO-CPR as an all-rail routing. Besides grain and coal moves across the Straits we'd be seeing ore trains heading south, perhaps even doublestacks if the bridge could have supported them. Chicago bypasses are still all the rage today - witness CN+EJ&E.

The carferries would have died off even earlier than they did, as they would not be able to compete against an NYC/PRR-NP/SOO routing across the U.P. to northern Wisconsin and beyond. Oh, well... never came to pass, but every time I see that long causeway jutting out from the U.P. side of the bridge it makes me go "Hmmm..."

Makes for neat model railroad proto-freelancing ("what-if") fodder anyhow.

[MIGN-Todd]

Sometimes it just makes you wish. Would've have been something to see had it been built

[GTWFRED]

Sometimes it just makes you wish. Would've have been something to see had it been built

Agree 110 %, It was an EXCELLENT "what if" question, Todd. I still have visions of what may have been. You've just inspired my next layout. Ahh, to dream!