Intermodal 101

[danted23]

Hey all,

I was on my way back from Chicago and it's hard not to notice all the intermodal trains on the east side of the skyway. I saw at least 2 really long intermodal trains. Where do these come from? Are they coming from another intermodal yard? Do they make many stops and pick up containers along the way to the Chicago yard?

Once they get to the Chicago intermodal yard(s) are they then trucked out or put on another train?

Just curious, I see all these containers and wonder where they're going or coming from.

I know that this is a Michigan Talk forum but there's a lot of knowledge on this board and would like to hear from the locals.

Thanks!

[Shorthaul]

Hey all,

I was on my way back from Chicago and it's hard not to notice all the intermodal trains on the east side of the skyway. I saw at least 2 really long intermodal trains. Where do these come from? Are they coming from another intermodal yard? Do they make many stops and pick up containers along the way to the Chicago yard?

Once they get to the Chicago intermodal yard(s) are they then trucked out or put on another train?

Just curious, I see all these containers and wonder where they're going or coming from.

I know that this is a Michigan Talk forum but there's a lot of knowledge on this board and would like to hear from the locals.

Thanks!

You are probably seeing Norfolk Southern's Chicago to Cleveland water level route. This is one of the main corridors from Chicago to the New York/New Jersey area, and this line sees upwards of 50 trains per day. These trains are most likely either coming from or heading to Norfolk Southern's Chicago intermodal yards. At these intermodal yards, the containers/trailers are sometimes taken off the trains and continue on the roads to destinations in the Chicago area. Other times, trains coming from the major western railroads (BNSF and Union Pacific, which operate most of the trains west of Chicago) are delivered to Norfolk Southern's intermodal yards, where NS puts their locomotives on the trains, and then they continue their journey to points east of Chicago. There are so many different possibilities for origins/destinations of these containers, it is hard to explain them all. Don't be afraid to ask any other questions you might have, because even if I don't know the answer, somebody else (most likely Mr. Tops) probably will.

[danted23]

Thanks! That definitely helps.

I got really curious because I just returned from FL and noticed a lot of Intermodal traffic on the FEC shortline between Jacksonville and Miami. That got me to thinking just where are all these containers are going. I was thinking that containers coming in to the Port of Miami would be taken up to Jacksonville where they would then be loaded on to trucks or on to another train. What I couldn't figure out was what the containers going from Jacksonville back southbound to Miami where for. Do you think these loaded containers are going back to the port to get loaded on ships?

This scenario seems a little more cut and dry, I just couldn't figure out the Chicago deal...

[Shorthaul]

Thanks! That definitely helps.

I got really curious because I just returned from FL and noticed a lot of Intermodal traffic on the FEC shortline between Jacksonville and Miami. That got me to thinking just where are all these containers are going. I was thinking that containers coming in to the Port of Miami would be taken up to Jacksonville where they would then be loaded on to trucks or on to another train. What I couldn't figure out was what the containers going from Jacksonville back southbound to Miami where for. Do you think these loaded containers are going back to the port to get loaded on ships?

This scenario seems a little more cut and dry, I just couldn't figure out the Chicago deal...

It is VERY hard to figure out the "Chicago Deal" so no problem
I doubt that any of the traffic would be taken on FEC from Miami to Jacksonville, and then trucked, if it was going to be trucked, it would be trucked all the way.
I don't know much about the Miami area, so I really can't tell you much. Were the containers 40'/20', or were they 48'/53'? This all makes a large difference. I could talk intermodal for hours. I'll try to get on the chat sometime if you want.

[DLM]

There are two ways to get containers between railroads in Chicago, steel wheel and rubber wheel interchange. Steel Wheel means a train moves the containers between rail ramps on a train. Rubber wheel means they move on the highway via truck. Just depends on many need to move to a certain point at one time. Also, a railroad may need to hang on to the flatcars sending all containers via a rubber wheel interchange.

The FEC is a great little railroad. They have a door to door program where they control trucks loading in Georgia and the Carolinas that run to Jacksonville and ride the train to Miami for delivery the next day. They move lots of steamship containers in and out of the south Florida ports. They also work with the NS in moving 53' EMHU containers. I loaded a 53' container in Michigan on Friday and routed it Chicago/NS/Jacksonville/FEC/Miami that deliverd on Monday afternoon. Pretty good service.

[AARR]

I loaded a 53' container in Michigan on Friday and routed it Chicago/NS/Jacksonville/FEC/Miami that deliverd on Monday afternoon. Pretty good service.

Was this trucked to Chicago?

[DLM]

Container trucked to Chicago. NS to Jacksonville. FEC to Miami. Truck delivered container.

[AARR]

Container trucked to Chicago. NS to Jacksonville. FEC to Miami. Truck delivered container.

I realize this was the most efficient routing but I'm curious if there is an option to load in Detroit and then route to Jacksonville and if yes how much more time would it have added to the trip?

[MSchwiebert]

No Intermodal facility for NS in Detroit.
http://www.nscorp.com/nscintermodal/Int ... ce_Matrix/

Container trucked to Chicago. NS to Jacksonville. FEC to Miami. Truck delivered container.

I realize this was the most efficient routing but I'm curious if there is an option to load in Detroit and then route to Jacksonville and if yes how much more time would it have added to the trip?

[JANGAJONGA]

I know NS has a triple crown yard in oakwood but dont they also load containers at livernois?

[Shorthaul]

I know NS has a triple crown yard in oakwood but dont they also load containers at livernois?

If my memory is correct, Detroit's only intermodal business is international. I think that the closest domestic ramp is Toledo, but I'm not sure. Does anybody know more about the Toledo INT. Terminal?

[GP9R]

No Intermodal facility for NS in Detroit.
http://www.nscorp.com/nscintermodal/Int ... ce_Matrix/

Jack did you miss this link ^^^?

[DLM]

Very limited domestic intermodal out of Detroit. No domestic service east to points east of the Mississippi River. You can go everywhere from Chicago at generally lower rates and faster service. I am loading a 53' container west of Cleveland on Friday and trucking it to Chicago. Cheaper price and faster service.

[JANGAJONGA]

Ohhhhh i did not know that there was really a difference between the two....thanks guys and yes i saw the link.

[Shorthaul]

Very limited domestic intermodal out of Detroit. No domestic service east to points east of the Mississippi River. You can go everywhere from Chicago at generally lower rates and faster service. I am loading a 53' container west of Cleveland on Friday and trucking it to Chicago. Cheaper price and faster service.

Where is the container's final destination, and what service do you use? Pacer?
Will the north baltimore yard change your routing when it is complete? I would think so, but I have no idea.

[GAP]

A very interesting book about intermodal is called "Columbo Bay." It's about a ship (Columbo Bay), not trains, but it has a wealth of information about where shipments come from and where they eventually go. It helps explain why there are "bare bones" trains on the West Coast,etc. It's a "good read."

[DLM]

Routed UP Chicago to Oakland, CA ramp for a bay area delivery.

Pacer is going away except for the blue paint on the containers. All the PACU's are now owned by the UP and part of the UMAX program. Just put a little blue paint over the Pacer name and slap a UMAX sticker on them. All PATU's are still owned by Pacer. But I expect the PATU's to slowly go away as Pacer exits the stacktrain business.

Will the new N Baltimore help me in the future? What is the drayage cost? What is the ramp to ramp cost? What is the transit time? I can't answer the question without these answers. I think N Baltimore is being built to capture import loads and not domestic business. I'd guess Sauder Furniture in Archibald, OH gets 25 containers per day. Lots of other import loads going to NW Ohio and SE Michigan they could try to capture. Good bye CSX Detroit ramp??? Good bye CSX Cleveland????

[MSchwiebert]

I was kind of wondering that too. My 'guess' is that most of the drayage truckers are independent contractors? On the one hand the typical dray from N. Baltimore to Detroit should be about 1/2 the mileage than to Chicago, but on the other I'd imagine just based on the number of trucking companies/truckers in the Chicago market that they're pretty cutthroat against each other and it may take a while for their local (NW Ohio/SE Michigan) counterparts to price 'properly' (presently with the down business there should be enough interest for the truckers to go after those runs - but what happens when things pick up?).

According to CSX, one of the reasons why North Baltimore was chosen as the location (they also looked at Kingsbury IN and a location near I-69 in the Auburn IN area) was that the region was largely untapped from an intermodal perspective, so they could combine the primary purpose of the facility - creating complete trains that could be handed off intact to the western roads at Chicago (as well as receiving the same eastbound and sorting them @ North Baltimore), local 'lifts' would be an important part of business too. It'll be interesting to see how big of 'footprint' North Baltimore would cover for local business. My guess is that Fort Wayne would be on the westward fringe, and Columbus OH on the southern end. As mentioned, it is possible that Detroit & Cleveland could see their operations shifted to take advantage of the synergies that North Baltimore will create.

Routed UP Chicago to Oakland, CA ramp for a bay area delivery.



Will the new N Baltimore help me in the future? What is the drayage cost? What is the ramp to ramp cost? What is the transit time? I can't answer the question without these answers. I think N Baltimore is being built to capture import loads and not domestic business. I'd guess Sauder Furniture in Archibald, OH gets 25 containers per day. Lots of other import loads going to NW Ohio and SE Michigan they could try to capture. Good bye CSX Detroit ramp??? Good bye CSX Cleveland????

[chapmaja]

Thanks! That definitely helps.

I got really curious because I just returned from FL and noticed a lot of Intermodal traffic on the FEC shortline between Jacksonville and Miami. That got me to thinking just where are all these containers are going. I was thinking that containers coming in to the Port of Miami would be taken up to Jacksonville where they would then be loaded on to trucks or on to another train. What I couldn't figure out was what the containers going from Jacksonville back southbound to Miami where for. Do you think these loaded containers are going back to the port to get loaded on ships?

This scenario seems a little more cut and dry, I just couldn't figure out the Chicago deal...

I think from what I understad of the FEC that most of what you saw was likely going from Jacksonville South to Miami and not from Miami northbound. I know a lot of domestic traffic will run via the FEC because of the service. I'm sure the port does a decent amount of inbound traffic as well.

[danted23]

Wow, great thread guys! Thanks for all of your insight, I'm definitely going to pick up that book!