AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Currently sitting in Avon, and have been for the last 2 days, is a cut of approximately 6 ex-METRA IC Electric commuter cars. Billing shows Great Lakes Central. Route should be Q218 to Toledo, and then up to Michigan. Cars may move tomorrow, if CSX's Clearance Bureau can apply the clearance information to the cars. Came out of E. St. Louis on the 28th. GLC for storage I assume?
Practice Safe CSX
Practice Safe CSX
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
That would be correct. They will be stored with the other ex Metra bi-level cars near the engine shops in Owosso.
-
- Sofa King follower
- Posts: 6159
- Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:59 pm
- Location: Toledo, OH.
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Ok I under stand the ex CB&Q cars, but ex electrics? Are they going to convert them to standard cars, or is there a new electric line being built that I have not heard about.
https://flic.kr/ps/jSuAb My Flickr photos!
-
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:41 pm
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Really??? Does anyone have the car numbers handy? I'm wondering where they came from.
Interesting to see those. There are VERY few preserved, and in only 3 places. Here is Frank Hicks' database. http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-quer ... agelen=200
They are nice cars with cab controls. But converting them to diesel-pulled would be a "start over from scratch" sort of thing. The control stand and MU controls are General Electric type CM which are made for EMU coaches, not compatible with diesels. They do not have 480VAC HEP wiring, they would have 1500V DC, trainlined possibly on the roof. The heating and A/C are designed to run on 1500VDC. And as sealed window coaches they'd be pretty useless without A/C, the folks at Boone mentioned to me that was a problem they were having with theirs.
Under wire they'd be quite excellent. They are EMU's with 600 horsepower per unit, which means they accelerate much more briskly than diesel hauled trains. Ideal for short haul commuter stops, say every mile or two. And you can economically run a train as few as 2 cars because you aren't dragging a diesel around.
Highliners need more than simple trolley wire. It needs to be catenary, setup for pantagraphs, and insulated for 1500VDC. As it happens, that's exactly what WRM is restoring on their line... which tells you it's within the means of volunteers to do it on the cheap. Oh the possibilities...
Interesting to see those. There are VERY few preserved, and in only 3 places. Here is Frank Hicks' database. http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-quer ... agelen=200
They are nice cars with cab controls. But converting them to diesel-pulled would be a "start over from scratch" sort of thing. The control stand and MU controls are General Electric type CM which are made for EMU coaches, not compatible with diesels. They do not have 480VAC HEP wiring, they would have 1500V DC, trainlined possibly on the roof. The heating and A/C are designed to run on 1500VDC. And as sealed window coaches they'd be pretty useless without A/C, the folks at Boone mentioned to me that was a problem they were having with theirs.
Under wire they'd be quite excellent. They are EMU's with 600 horsepower per unit, which means they accelerate much more briskly than diesel hauled trains. Ideal for short haul commuter stops, say every mile or two. And you can economically run a train as few as 2 cars because you aren't dragging a diesel around.
Highliners need more than simple trolley wire. It needs to be catenary, setup for pantagraphs, and insulated for 1500VDC. As it happens, that's exactly what WRM is restoring on their line... which tells you it's within the means of volunteers to do it on the cheap. Oh the possibilities...
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Well, they are in pretty rough shape. Windows are missing, elements have been getting into them, let alone the ice storm they endured while parked in Avon. Last I knew, still sitting in the Avon Car shop while mechanical forces figure out what to do with these cars. They are 'rear riders' but have the air cut out of them. Can't run the rear car of the train without operative air brakes.Robert MacDowell wrote:Really??? Does anyone have the car numbers handy? I'm wondering where they came from.
Interesting to see those. There are VERY few preserved, and in only 3 places. Here is Frank Hicks' database. http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-quer ... agelen=200
They are nice cars with cab controls. But converting them to diesel-pulled would be a "start over from scratch" sort of thing. The control stand and MU controls are General Electric type CM which are made for EMU coaches, not compatible with diesels. They do not have 480VAC HEP wiring, they would have 1500V DC, trainlined possibly on the roof. The heating and A/C are designed to run on 1500VDC. And as sealed window coaches they'd be pretty useless without A/C, the folks at Boone mentioned to me that was a problem they were having with theirs.
Under wire they'd be quite excellent. They are EMU's with 600 horsepower per unit, which means they accelerate much more briskly than diesel hauled trains. Ideal for short haul commuter stops, say every mile or two. And you can economically run a train as few as 2 cars because you aren't dragging a diesel around.
Highliners need more than simple trolley wire. It needs to be catenary, setup for pantagraphs, and insulated for 1500VDC. As it happens, that's exactly what WRM is restoring on their line... which tells you it's within the means of volunteers to do it on the cheap. Oh the possibilities...
AARX 1505 is one of the car numbers off hand.
Practice Safe CSX
-
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:41 pm
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Thanks. 1505 is in the valid range of Metra Highliners. However it's not any known car preserved so it's clearly other stock.
-
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:05 pm
- Location: SW Michigan. Somewhere along the GDLK.
- Contact:
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Nice to see them going somewhere though, I'll have to concede, instead of reaching their demise. May as well add them to all their friends already congregating up there at GLC.
Nice to see them going somewhere though, I'll have to concede, instead of reaching their demise. May as well add them to all their friends already congregating up there at GLC.
- ns8401
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 3988
- Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:57 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL/Ann Arbor MI
- Contact:
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Yep, add them to the fleet of cars that will NOT be seeing service in or around Howell or Ann Arbor... From what I'm hearing WALLY is sorta kinda doomed...StrayWolf716 wrote:Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Nice to see them going somewhere though, I'll have to concede, instead of reaching their demise. May as well add them to all their friends already congregating up there at GLC.
Celebrating Over 3800 Posts in HD
This updated Signature Brought To YOU By The One The Only MQT3001!
NS8401, Online, At Trackside And On Your Side
This updated Signature Brought To YOU By The One The Only MQT3001!
NS8401, Online, At Trackside And On Your Side
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Don't worry, I have a feeling they won't be moving anytime soon. Not until they figure out how to get operable air brakes on them. Still can't believe these things got out of E. St. Louis in the condition they are in.ns8401 wrote:Yep, add them to the fleet of cars that will NOT be seeing service in or around Howell or Ann Arbor... From what I'm hearing WALLY is sorta kinda doomed...StrayWolf716 wrote:Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Nice to see them going somewhere though, I'll have to concede, instead of reaching their demise. May as well add them to all their friends already congregating up there at GLC.
Practice Safe CSX
-
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:41 pm
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them. So you need that 80/20 match from the Feds. You spend 10 years trying to weasel an earmark. There are strings attached to the money. One is that they want a custom design tailored for your needs. So you hire designers, have public hearings, produce a spec. On top of that all the Federal terms and conditions. The spec fills a Bankers Box.StrayWolf716 wrote:Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Every bidder must pay people millions of dollars to read all that paper. Therefore you only get the companies good at chasing government money... not good at building coaches. And they're building custom. The first production is obviously broken, but the maker claims it meets spec. Round and round. You get some stuff fixed but the government is demanding you start service soon, or give back the money. So you reluctantly accept delivery of the coaches as-is. The builder knows you will do this. All this has taken you another 10 years.
No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
I got a feeling they're going to be spending a lot of $$$ to get these things in any type of shape to be road worthy for passengers. They are ROUGH.Robert MacDowell wrote:You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them.StrayWolf716 wrote:Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Tried to run them out last night, but these things require so much air to make the brakes work, that you can't run them on the rear of a freight train, despite the fact that they are rear rider cars. I got a feeling when the power situation improves there will be a 'special' move to get these things up towards Toledo.
Practice Safe CSX
- ns8401
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 3988
- Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:57 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL/Ann Arbor MI
- Contact:
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
Just curious would they work behind the engines or is there a reason that isn't usually done? I've seen freights that had coaches on them and they are usually on the rear as you said would be needed. Just curious why that is?CSX_CO wrote:I got a feeling they're going to be spending a lot of $$$ to get these things in any type of shape to be road worthy for passengers. They are ROUGH.Robert MacDowell wrote:You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them.StrayWolf716 wrote:Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Tried to run them out last night, but these things require so much air to make the brakes work, that you can't run them on the rear of a freight train, despite the fact that they are rear rider cars. I got a feeling when the power situation improves there will be a 'special' move to get these things up towards Toledo.
Practice Safe CSX
Celebrating Over 3800 Posts in HD
This updated Signature Brought To YOU By The One The Only MQT3001!
NS8401, Online, At Trackside And On Your Side
This updated Signature Brought To YOU By The One The Only MQT3001!
NS8401, Online, At Trackside And On Your Side
-
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:05 pm
- Location: SW Michigan. Somewhere along the GDLK.
- Contact:
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
All of that seems like points well made and supported.. however I still fail to see the reason why so many of these coaches are needed. It's not like this is a communter rail start up in a major metropolitan area. I couldn't even imagine the rider base to be of extravagant numbers to begin with.Robert MacDowell wrote:You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them. So you need that 80/20 match from the Feds. You spend 10 years trying to weasel an earmark. There are strings attached to the money. One is that they want a custom design tailored for your needs. So you hire designers, have public hearings, produce a spec. On top of that all the Federal terms and conditions. The spec fills a Bankers Box.StrayWolf716 wrote:Why exactly do they even need any more up there in Owosso? The place is swarming with them, in a business venture that seems so shaky already.
Every bidder must pay people millions of dollars to read all that paper. Therefore you only get the companies good at chasing government money... not good at building coaches. And they're building custom. The first production is obviously broken, but the maker claims it meets spec. Round and round. You get some stuff fixed but the government is demanding you start service soon, or give back the money. So you reluctantly accept delivery of the coaches as-is. The builder knows you will do this. All this has taken you another 10 years.
No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.
Spares, excess cars for parts, etc. isn't a bad idea, but there seems to be plenty up there at the shops already.
Hopefully I'm wrong and it turns into the next big thing. But for now, I'm just trying to make sense out of what seems to be no sense. Not trying to doom it before it ever takes off or anything.
-
- Sofa King follower
- Posts: 6159
- Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:59 pm
- Location: Toledo, OH.
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
All a moot point unless they are going to sting wire on the Michigan Line or GLC.Robert MacDowell wrote:You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. Those are $4 million a pop and local money sure can't afford them. So you need that 80/20 match from the Feds. You spend 10 years trying to weasel an earmark. There are strings attached to the money. One is that they want a custom design tailored for your needs. So you hire designers, have public hearings, produce a spec. On top of that all the Federal terms and conditions. The spec fills a Bankers Box.
Every bidder must pay people millions of dollars to read all that paper. Therefore you only get the companies good at chasing government money... not good at building coaches. And they're building custom. The first production is obviously broken, but the maker claims it meets spec. Round and round. You get some stuff fixed but the government is demanding you start service soon, or give back the money. So you reluctantly accept delivery of the coaches as-is. The builder knows you will do this. All this has taken you another 10 years.
No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.
https://flic.kr/ps/jSuAb My Flickr photos!
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
The people who own the coaches, along with the railroad, don't want to subject them to the 'in train forces' that moving on the head end of a freight train incur. They are rear riders to avoid this.ns8401 wrote:Just curious would they work behind the engines or is there a reason that isn't usually done? I've seen freights that had coaches on them and they are usually on the rear as you said would be needed. Just curious why that is?
These cars don't work very well. I believe they ran these cars with either 100lbs or 110lbs of pressure. They take a lot of air to get to charge up and set up the brakes. At the rear of a long freight train, that's tough to get. From what I've gathered, these cars got moved to Avon with the air lines blocked. Not sure how you can move something on the rear of a train without operative airbrakes, let alone accept the things in interchange. They are also leaking air like a sieve.
Practice Safe CSX
- intocable83
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:59 pm
- Location: Perry/Morrice and Mexico City Mexico
- Contact:
-
- Railroadfan...fan
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:41 pm
Re: AARX cars for Great Lakes Central - Ex-METRA Electics
No worries I appreciate that. You mean the dozens of diesel hauled coaches? Easy - the price. I hear Metra was practically giving the coaches away, not sure why. At that price, "too many" is a much easier problem to fix than "too few".StrayWolf716 wrote:All of that seems like points well made and supported.. however I still fail to see the reason why so many of these coaches are needed. It's not like this is a communter rail start up in a major metropolitan area. I couldn't even imagine the rider base to be of extravagant numbers to begin with.Robert MacDowell wrote: You wanna see shaky, try starting a commuter railroad without a big fleet of used coaches. You have NO coaches. You have to go out and buy new stock. ....... No, having those coaches on-hand really ups the chances of pulling off a viable service and doing it inside our lifetimes.
Spares, excess cars for parts, etc. isn't a bad idea, but there seems to be plenty up there at the shops already.
Hopefully I'm wrong and it turns into the next big thing. But for now, I'm just trying to make sense out of what seems to be no sense. Not trying to doom it before it ever takes off or anything.
Look at L.A. Metrolink, they bought way more stock than they needed so they'd have headroom to expand for 20 years. They were running mostly simple "4 in the morning, 4 in the evening" type commute service. Then BLAM, the Northridge quake busts up the roads. Metrolink seizes the opportunity to extend routes and run 18x7, just like Chicago. Guess what happens after they fix the roads. The riders stay. So the train stays. Instantly Metrolink is where they planned to be in 2020. Only works if you have the coaches to pull it off.
As for the electrics, they got 6. 2 rotating into the shop, that leaves 4. One cab per car, so two trains absolute max. That's enough for a simple shuttle service of 2-10 miles, about what you could electrify cheaply. (1 substation, no feeder.)