Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Definitive Thread

[jrgerber]

So things haven't improved under Pioneer's ownership of the line?

[Y@]

Go back and read through the thread.

[Y@]

look guyz i fawnd teh N&DW all by my self 2day/2nite w/o use teh innnernet

[MagnumForce]

So things haven't improved under Pioneer's ownership of the line?

What is your definition of improvement? The line is still abysmal by any definition of the word. It is better than under the MAW but barely and this is after Pioneer put tons of work into things. Still looks and feels the same as it did last summer and the summer before, just different locomotives. Still moving at a crawl, still routinely derailing, still no ballast, still weeds everywhere.

Currently no track work is occurring.

[jrgerber]

I would say attempting to run the railroad as one continuous segment would be an improvement or at least trying to improve the property ie tie replacement would be better than it was under MAW. Pioneer ran a similar operation called the Minnesota Central before calling it quits, it was killing operations and stockholders income too much. Eventually that railroad got a new operator along with a federal loan to completely rebuild the railroad. Pioneer hasn't even run this railroad for a year, its hard for me to imagine they are done attempting to improve it. I do agree that it doesn't take much to do weed control which would improve the looks of the property.

[StupidFlee​t]

Here's my opinion:

They don't really need to do a whole lot. It's not a major mainline, it's basically a branch, and has been that way since the Wabash days. As long as they can get the number of derailments down and keep them down, there isn't really a need to do a major trackwork project. The line has got by for many years and owners with minimal maintenance and it's still there. It can stay at 10 MPH (or less) for all I care. It can stay weedy. That's not the important thing. The important thing is to get the infrastructure to be somewhat stable so there isn't frequent derailments, and that will lead to more reliable transit times.

[AARR]

They don't really need to do a whole lot. The important thing is to get the infrastructure to be somewhat stable so there isn't frequent derailments, and that will lead to more reliable transit times.

+2 Most of their traffic is 70-80 ton Load Limit box cars which can do just fine on excepted track at slow speeds. Their traffic moves 15 miles from Defiance and 15-20 miles (?) from Woodburn. Investing in increasing track speed will not make that much difference over those short distances.

[Saturnalia]

I bet the weeds do more for holding the tracks in place than the earth roadbed. At least it provides some structure.

[MagnumForce]

I don't even really see a reason to run between Cecil an Defiance honestly. FWIW they have ran light power between the two ends and I don't see a reason they couldn't run if they needed to. But the need isn't there.

[CSX_CO]

I bet the weeds do more for holding the tracks in place than the earth roadbed. At least it provides some structure.

Since I am accused of having a 'raging hardon' to prove you wrong, suffice to say your assumption is incorrect. I'll let someone else explain why to avoid the appearance of 'picking on you'.

Practice Safe CSX

[railohio]

Because organic matter will decompose and hinder proper drainage which will lead to problems with track structure.

[MagnumForce]

Drainage? Go check out the jungle between the college and Clinton. Standing water is normal.

[Saturnalia]

I was thinking more along the lines of holding the soil in place. If you're just on dirt, you may as well have something to keep the dirt there. Sort of like the sand dune principle with the dune grass and trees.

No saying it is the best scenario to keep your tracks in place, but it might be helping, even if only a little.

And I'm not saying for sure it is, hence the "I bet" at the beginning

[alittlevanwerty]

I might as well add my 2 cents also since I have nothing better to do on break. Though track work has slowed down, I filmed and posted the video of 3054 taking a load of rail. They was a backhoe and crew waiting for it to make a repair between Jewell and Flory Rd. Also the CN segment from Cecil to Lafarge has had weed killer sprayed.

As far as a continuous line, I have a theory that when the concrete starts shipping it will go to CSX in Defiance. If it is destined for a CSX serve client why the heck let NS have a piece of the pie. Time will tell I suppose.

Chased them again Monday btw so video coming later tonight...

[MSchwiebert]

Couple of thoughts,
1. The first goal of Pioneer's is (or should be) stabilization. Years of neglect aren't going to be overcome in a year - or 3 - or 5. If the business plan that Pioneer put together as part of the decision making process justifying the purchase said that it'll take 5 years worth of work to get to consistent 25 MPH operation. That's what they budgeted for & that's what it'll take.
2. As mentioned in a previous post, the key is consistency in delivery. A friend of mine at work is in the purchasing/transportation department. She schedules and works with inbound raw materials - some of which are moved by rail. Among the rail lines she works with for the plants she's responsible for are the CN, UP & the Wheeling & Lake Erie. I got the opportunity to "shadow" her to see what the day to day activities are like and she said that as long as the rails are consistent with their delivery schedule, she can live with how long it takes, but when the delivery times start to "yo-yo" it becomes difficult to deal with & the worst case scenario is having to resort to emergency truck shipments to keep the plant going. (the cost differential between a covered hopper of material & the two truckloads that equate to one covered hopper is quite high).

[wildcatsa1fan]

Vanwerty a slight correction to your post !! We do not ship concrete we ship cement powder and two, right now we are set to use NS through Woodburn for now. Lafarge modal guy not confident in the Cecil to defiance section

Thanks

[Raildudes dad]

I have had a 40 year RR veteran (white hat / management for many years) tell me he thinks the Grand Trunk actually planted equisetum to hold the steep banks of the roadbed. So there is some truth to MQ3001's comment with regards to roadbeds w/o any rock ballast.

[alittlevanwerty]

Vanwerty a slight correction to your post !! We do not ship concrete we ship cement powder and two, right now we are set to use NS through Woodburn for now. Lafarge modal guy not confident in the Cecil to defiance section

Thanks

Ya be sure to tell us when it starts to move!

[CSX_CO]

I have had a 40 year RR veteran (white hat / management for many years) tell me he thinks the Grand Trunk actually planted equisetum to hold the steep banks of the roadbed. So there is some truth to MQ3001's comment with regards to roadbeds w/o any rock ballast.

Yeah, the railroads and highway commissions planted Kudzu down south on their embankments to keep them in place. We see how that turned out.

Vegetation in the physical track structure, which MQT was referring to, is not good for the reasons RO pointed out. Dirt, as long as it stays dry, is ok for tracks to be buried in. Even dirt dries out eventually, but the plants will hold moisture in the road bed. So, the weeds don't 'do more' to keep the track in place.

Pretty sure the SOP for the transcontinental railroad was dirt 'ballast' for construction until they could come back through later with better quality rock and put in 'real' ballast. Onus was just on 'getting it done' and they could run trains until such a time they could adequately ballast and drain it. Vegetation can throw everything out of alignment, crushed grass makes for poor contact between the rail and wheel surface on the locomotive (slipping), etc. MAW should do an aggressive vegetation control campaign otherwise all the tie and rail work will be overgrown again by the end of the summer.

Practice Safe CSX

[Raildudes dad]

I agree with you, weeds are bad for track structure but I was surprised to hear from a respected railroad guy that he thought GT planted equiestum for erosion control. Not as bad as kudzu but nearly impossible to kill vegitation.

The PRR north of GR never got any rock ballast until MDOT took over, all local bank run gravel with some cinders. There are some stretches of the old GT west of GR that still are only bank run gravel, no rock