Busiest rail jct. in America?

[CSX_CO]

Sure it does. Now, I'm guilty of not being specific I what I was getting at by Roosevelt. I generally refer to Roosevelt as a much larger interlocking than Roosevelt proper, and I take it all the way to the river (I'm not trying to "be right", I really do generally cnsider it all one spaghetti bowl for general identification). All you need is one connection, which we've got more than enough of going from CUS to UP, and there you go.

If it floats your boat, no, Roosevelt Road proper does not meet my definition.

And as far as I'm concerned, each train must be under a different symbol. So your yard goat does not count there.

I'm with Mag, that's stretching it. As long as were arbitrarily stretching the definition of 'junction', then why can't we use every movement that passes a particular point? Roosevelt Road is just a bunch of switches in a yard. Heck, the 28 switch at the bottom of the hump at Avon saw 1800 moves yesterday. Its power operated and is where 54 tracks 'meet'. That's a pretty busy 'junction'!

Roosevelt Roads numbers are surely boosted by the same yard jobs pulling and shoving train sets to/from CUS. Same job makes multiple movements under the same symbol. I'm not saying Roosevelt Road isn't busy, you're just REALLY stretching the 'definition' of a 'Junction' to stay 'right'. I'll have to remember that excuse though: "I am correct because I wasn't specific enough".

Which river are you talking about anyway? The S. Branch at 21st Street? Because there are 3 interlockings between Rosevelt Rd and 21st. "Alton Jct (21st Street), S. Branch Bridge (separate interlocking, and was switch tenders once upon a time), Lumber Street, 16th Street, and then Roosevelt Road.

Anyway, 16th Street is where the CB&Q historically connected into the Chicago Union Station company property, not Roosevelt Rd. That would be where the actual 'junction' is. Roosevelt Road is just the 'remaining' cross street that every one sits on. Polk (also location of the giant PRR Freight House), and Taylor Streets all 'used' to cross over the tracks at CUS. That is why CUS company opted for the distinctive 'domino' signals. The clearances and spacing of the bridges didn't allow traditional three masted semaphores to be seen for any distance. The 'custom designed' domino gave them a 'squat' signal that could be mounted on the side of those bridges (they were mounted to the side of the street bridges not to railroad signal bridges), could give traditional '3 headed' aspects on a single head, and be seen under the bridge before it.

<Incidentally, and totally unrelated, in the opening scenes of "The Dark Knight" the bank robbery was shot in the old portion of the Post Office Building, and the school bus 'leaving', after crashing into the building, is turning east onto Harrison Street. CUS 'trainshed' roof can be seen on the left side of the shot.>

I'm also fairly certain the "UP" doesn't connect to Chicago Union Station property at 16th Street. There may be a physical connection with switches, but I don't think CNW connected to the CUS property directly. Any connection was facilitated by other roads. That was historically B&OCT property, and specifically the St. Charles Air Line. I believe CN controls the St. Charles Air Line, but, last I knew, the Bridge Tender positions were still B&OCT employees.

CNW 'stub ended' at its Wood Street (Potato) Yard. CNW property line ended "at the W. Abutment of the approach to lift bridges" there, it became the "St. Charles Air Line Company" east of that point,and the connection with the IC. B&OCT had a "Robey Street Yard" along the north side of Wood Street. All this property turned into Global One, and the St. Charles Air Line is the much sought property that used to connect the B&OCT with the passenger terminal just east of the Chicago River. CNW system track maps show no connection to the CUS property on them, any connection made was via the CB&Q and via 16th St. Historically, anything bound for the PRR from the CNW would either use the Panhandle via California Ave connection (59th Street and 55th via Englewood Connecting), or the joint North Approach via Western Ave, run down the 'by pass' tracks through CUS, then south (east) on the PRR at 21st Street (merchandise moves for the freight houses around CUS, and interchange at 55th Street Yard).

Also, not sure where you're getting the 'L' at Roosevelt Rd? It doesn't come withing 3 blocks of the Chicago Union Station property on Roosevelt Rd. Its over under/along State Street, east of where the B&O Grand Central, LaSalle Street Station, and Dearborn Stations are/were.

Practice Safe CSX

[Y@]

Talk about stretching a definition to suit your needs.

This.

East end yard lead North Baltimore Ohio.

And this.

[Saturnalia]

Well, you see, junctions can be much more than the one CP or set of diamonds, in my opinion. If you visit the Roosevelt Road area, it becomes very clear that the whole area is a very complex system of interlockings, convergences, yard tracks and general railroad spaghetti, that functions largely as one massive junction. I refer to it generally as "Roosevelt Road", because just about everyone knows the name, so everyone knows what area you are talking about, and then you can localize to the specific area if need be. That is because, sometimes, the person you talk to does not know the specific name of a specific part of the yard, and needs a description to get them there. Do I need a flow chart?

But in my haste, I forgot to specify that my mentioning of it was not just Roosevelt Proper. Okay, fine you got me, and I quickly tried to make it clear what I meant by "Roosevelt Road". But of course, the usual suspects try to do eveyrthing to try and pick me apart.

Of course, they are entitled to their opinion on the on the issue of what does and doesn't count as a junction, and it is fine to have that conversation, opinions can differ and neither is wrong. But, in this case, as with many cases around here, if my opinion differs from what a few select people think, then I am wrong.

Bottom line is, in my opinion, from the Chicago River north to CUS is the busiest (even if each symbol only counts once) non-subway/tramway junction in the USA. And that is what the original poster was asking for, what is the busiest jct in America. If you think you know a busier spot, then say it. Mysteriously no one has tried to discredit the area in question beyond calling the definintion of "junction" into question, which is an opinoon to begin with, and therefore cannot be totally dis-proven and what specifically counts as Roosevelt Road.

I rest my case.

[MagnumForce]

Wow. I still vote for tower 18 as the busiest at grade heavy rail crossing/junction in the US and don't consider Roosevelt Road a junction at all in any definition at all. If we go by your definition then 30th Street Station in Phillie and Jamaica Station on Long Island would still be busier than Roosevelt Rd. You are essentially calling any point with an interlocking along with some other lines that are not even at the same level and may be blocks away a junction.

[Y@]

Well, you see, junctions can be much more than the one CP or set of diamonds, in my opinion.

In your opinion? Yeah, OK. All hail.

Do I need a flow chart?

No.

But in my haste, I forgot to specify that my mentioning of it was not just Roosevelt Proper. Okay, fine you got me, and I quickly tried to make it clear what I meant by "Roosevelt Road". But of course, the usual suspects try to do eveyrthing to try and pick me apart.

So you were wrong.

But, in this case, as with many cases around here, if my opinion differs from what a few select people think, then I am wrong.

And you confirmed it.

If you think you know a busier spot, then say it.

Porter Junction.

Mysteriously no one has tried to discredit the area in question beyond calling the definintion of "junction" into question, which is an opinoon to begin with, and therefore cannot be totally dis-proven and what specifically counts as Roosevelt Road.

Obviously, that's not what anyone is trying to do. Specifics matter, you know.

I rest my case.

So that makes you right? No.

[CSX_CO]

Bottom line is, in my opinion, from the Chicago River north to CUS is the busiest (even if each symbol only counts once) non-subway/tramway junction in the USA. And that is what the original poster was asking for, what is the busiest jct in America. If you think you know a busier spot, then say it. Mysteriously no one has tried to discredit the area in question beyond calling the definintion of "junction" into question, which is an opinoon to begin with, and therefore cannot be totally dis-proven and what specifically counts as Roosevelt Road.

Blue Island Jct and Dolton both see over 100+ moves a day. Maybe some repeat moves (transfer jobs) but most are 'unique' moves. Throw in the RI overhead at Blue Island Jct and you're even above that. Gibbon Jct out in Nebraska sees over 100+ moves a day, and I doubt there are any 'repeat' moves. Heck, want to encompass as much geography as 21st St to CUS Trainshed, throw in the IC overhead at Dolton too into that train count.

Your whole "Chicago Union Station Company" example is no different then a major yard terminal with transfer jobs switching cars, scoots shoving into place, and then departing, etc.

That's 'ok' in your book, but when I state there are 200 moves a day at the east end of *MY* yard, that doesn't count because they are all the same 'jobs'.

Plenty of people have given other examples of busier 'junctions'. Shoot, you want to include a who passenger terminal, Mag named two, and then probably Grand Central in New York when you count all the subway and train movements.

Whatever...you're always right, and when you're not you're right because you weren't specific enough, had a typo, or stated it wrong.

Practice Safe CSX

[MagnumForce]

Back on topic if we discount passenger and transit lines, I don't consider Berea a junction per say but that has to be pushing 150 a day or it used to. Grand Island has got to be around that and probably more.

[Standard Railfan]

Penn Station New York City for passenger.

EDIT: According to a New York Times article dated November 22, 2012 the busiest junction is Harold Interlocking in Sunnyside yard just east of Penn Station. According to the article..."Today, the Harold Interlocking is the busiest rail intersection in the country, with 600 commuter trains and 48 Amtrak trains passing through it daily...

Entire article here http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... rold/?_r=0

Freight, how about the trench in LA where the container trains come off the docks?

[Fred]

Been to most of the places mentioned already including "Santa Fe Jct" in KC which I think is the busiest. While there in July of 2010 I shot 4 trains moving at the same time, 2 above & 2 below. There is a deadend road whose bridge goes over some tracks with a good view of the flyover that is a good, safe spot to photograph from. You have UP, BNSF, Amtrak, and some KCS traffic.

[mike nowakowski]

I would have to agree Kansas City Santa Fe Junction, its the busiest i have ever seen, i was there 4 hours and there was no breaks in train traffic.

[Racer]

Anyone know how many trains pass through Valley Junction in Barstow, California on a 24 hour basis? I'm sure a few are repeated movements since it ties into Barstow's receiving yard.